Calsonic R32 still competitive? - GT-R Register - Official Nissan Skyline and GTR Owners Club forum

RamRod · 30th July 2008, 07:59 AM

Just sitting here thinking about the R32 Calsonic GTR and wondering if it would be competitive in todays motor racing? For instance if it was entered into timeattack? If so what makes it so special? (engine, suspension etc???)

SteveN · 30th July 2008, 08:57 AM

What helped it be so special is massivley wide slicks all round, something thats not allowed in Time Attack.

kismetcapitan · 30th July 2008, 09:13 AM

I wonder as well. It had lots of special little parts that make it impossible to duplicate today. I've heard bits and pieces - special rear brakes and brake mounts, suspension tweaks, god knows how they had the ATTESA set up but it was definitely to kill everything else out on the track, swinging oil pickup. 500bhp but the chassis was definitely set up to make the absolute most of it.

If I were the Sultan of Brunei (but with better petrolhead taste), I'd have this car in my collection, and have run in on the 'Ring as well as brought out regularly to answer that exact question - would the car be competitive against modern DTM cars, or current JGTC cars (note that AWD isn't permitted in JGTC thanks to the Skyline, so what kind of an edge would it gain against the modern racers?)

Lee_Pendlebury · 30th July 2008, 09:31 AM

It would be miles away from DTM or JGTC. Times move on, and the regs allow for more in both of those series anyway than Group A ever did.

SteveN · 30th July 2008, 09:58 AM

kismetcapitan- Would be nothing that special TBH. They didnt exactly defeat everyone with ease.
Not even the 4wd would be that special. A lot of the race cars ive seen have had it adjusted for fixed torque split, with a dial, so its always 50-50 or whatever the dial is turned to, regardless of acceleration, cornering, or braking.
If it wasnt that, it would be similar to that Skylab TSC setup idve thought.

Agree with Lee, these days theyd get murdered against the modern equivalents.

PS30-SB · 30th July 2008, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveN

What helped it be so special is massivley wide slicks all round...........

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveN

kismetcapitan- Would be nothing that special TBH. They didnt exactly defeat everyone with ease.
Not even the 4wd would be that special. A lot of the race cars ive seen have had it adjusted for fixed torque split, with a dial, so its always 50-50 or whatever the dial is turned to, regardless of acceleration, cornering, or braking.

I don't want to be rude or confrontational, but I strongly suspect that you know very little about Nissan's Group A GT-Rs.

A quick flick though the homologation sheets, build plans and 'kit lists' of those car would leave most people with any engineering knowledge in little doubt that they were anything much like a standard car.

kismetcapitan · 30th July 2008, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PS30-SB

I don't want to be rude or confrontational, but I strongly suspect that you know very little about Nissan's Group A GT-Rs.

A quick flick though the homologation sheets, build plans and 'kit lists' of those car would leave most people with any engineering knowledge in little doubt that they were anything much like a standard car.

that's what I had heard. I had mulled over building a Group A replica, and found that there were too many "secret sauce" components and construction bits to do, unless I had a $500,000 budget and a couple of the guys who built the originals helping me.

One way to actually figure out is to see what the lap records the Calsonic R32 posted on various Japanese circuits, then compare with what the current fast JGTC cars (the Nissan "GT-R" - in quotes because it does not use the VR38 engine, and the Toyota SC430) are posting.

SteveN · 30th July 2008, 11:24 AM

Why the chuckle about the slicks? Its a fact, they had over twice the tyre contact patch to put the power down compared to the entire opposition, doesnt take a genius to see that as a HUGE advantage does it.

I dont know the entire spec of them, but DO know what was allowed within GrpA Homologation rules at the time so know what wouldve been done, and what wouldnt.

Without a shadow of a doubt they were VERY modified, but nothing much you couldnt replicate today.

So fire away mate, tell us these miraculous things done that makes them totally amazing even by todays standards...

Lee_Pendlebury · 30th July 2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kismetcapitan

One way to actually figure out is to see what the lap records the Calsonic R32 posted on various Japanese circuits, then compare with what the current fast JGTC cars (the Nissan "GT-R" - in quotes because it does not use the VR38 engine, and the Toyota SC430) are posting.

You dont need the time to know its going to be slaughtered. And why comment on the engine. Its not like it has a GTR chassis, or even anything else apart from a vaguely GTR looking shape. I bet none of the panels would even fit.

Anyway ive done some looking. The Group A lap record at Bathurst is held by the Skyline at 2.14.5. The lap record held be a V8 supercar is 2.08.4. These arnt going to be as quick as DTM or Super GT will be. I wouldnt have thought the track has changed much over the years but cant find any info on it.

Infact Im bored. Ive got the times from Fuji.
1994 Group A car 1.35
2003 (Before Tilke wrecked it) JGTC 1.23

RamRod · 30th July 2008, 12:13 PM

Interesting..

I expect modern racing cars will be faster, so long as the rules haven't changed too much for instance limiting power to 200BHp etc.

Do you think its unreasonable to think tuner R32 cars are quicker? For instance the DCY 800Hp car?

kismetcapitan · 30th July 2008, 12:17 PM

I just checked lap times at Fuji Speedway, and it appears that the Calsonic R32 would not be shamed.

Fastest Group A laptime is 1:31.131 done in an R32. The R35 racecar posted a pole-position time of 1:34.878 this year.

However, a 1:23.886 was done in a Toyota Supra (GT500 class) in 2003, and Lewis Hamilton holds the F1 record with a.....1:24.753!

Lee_Pendlebury · 30th July 2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kismetcapitan

I just checked lap times at Fuji Speedway, and it appears that the Calsonic R32 would not be shamed.

Fastest Group A laptime is 1:31.131 done in an R32. The R35 racecar posted a pole-position time of 1:34.878 this year.

However, a 1:23.886 was done in a Toyota Supra (GT500 class) in 2003, and Lewis Hamilton holds the F1 record with a.....1:24.753!

As per my post, you can only take the times up to 2003 as after that the circuit was totally ruined so F1 could go there.

kismetcapitan · 30th July 2008, 12:41 PM

one interesting note is that the current GT500 cars are significantly faster than FIA GT1 cars - a Maserati MC12 (king of the GT1 class) had to withdraw from Suzuka as it was losing a full second PER LAP to the rest of the field!!

the downside is that GT500 cars are nothing like the roadgoing versions - nothing similar between the new GT-R racecar and the R35...except the taillights. Same with the much-desired R34 - the GT500 R34 is one of my most desired cars, and yet I now fully understand why there is no bodykit for an R34 - the bootlid and the passenger cell are the same, but that's it, and even in the passenger cell, the driver sits at least a foot or so behind the normal driving position in an R34.

moleman · 30th July 2008, 12:55 PM

GT500 and DTM cars are essentially F1 cars in a dress and nothing like the road cars their bodies happen to represent and in racing terms are considered a step in single seat racing as far as career progression goes.

At Le Mans now the GT1 cars are not much slower than the Prototypes.

They are a long way from Grp A etc.

The Calsonic 32 was, and still is, awesome but 20 years of racing development means it can't be compared to contemporary equivalents.

PS30-SB · 30th July 2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveN

Why the chuckle about the slicks? Its a fact, they had over twice the tyre contact patch to put the power down compared to the entire opposition, doesnt take a genius to see that as a HUGE advantage does it.

Perhaps you don't realise the irony that made me chuckle. Those "massively wide slicks" that you are saying made the car "so special" were attached to a suspension system that was completely different to that of the standard road cars. I'm not just talking about springs and dampers here........

You make it sound as though bolting a set of super-wide slicks on the car would do most of the job. In actual fact they'd slow it down through massive drag too......

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveN

So fire away mate, tell us these miraculous things done that makes them totally amazing even by todays standards...

I'm not here to teach you something you think you already know about. I'm simply pointing out ( for the benefit of others who might believe you ) that the subject is a lot more complicated than you think it is.

"..... even by today's standards..." is your quote - not mine. We are talking about cars that were developed twenty years ago now. Even just tyre technology has moved on massively in that period, let alone anything else.

My main point is that the Gr.A R32s were far more complex, and far more modified over 'standard' road cars than most people realise. If you really want to know about the complexities of the cars ( and I'm not sure you really do ) then I refer you to the FIA and JAF homologation papers for the car ( about 90 pages worth, as I recall ) and the NISMO kit list for the Gr.A chassis - which runs to over 300 pages of special parts lists and assembly diagrams without even including the REINIK engines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveN

Would be nothing that special TBH.

Sorry, I can't help myself

30th July 2008, 07:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
RamRod GTROC Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 220	Calsonic R32 still competitive? Just sitting here thinking about the R32 Calsonic GTR and wondering if it would be competitive in todays motor racing? For instance if it was entered into timeattack? If so what makes it so special? (engine, suspension etc???)

30th July 2008, 09:13 AM	#3 (permalink)
kismetcapitan GTR Register Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seoul Korea Posts: 6,401	I wonder as well. It had lots of special little parts that make it impossible to duplicate today. I've heard bits and pieces - special rear brakes and brake mounts, suspension tweaks, god knows how they had the ATTESA set up but it was definitely to kill everything else out on the track, swinging oil pickup. 500bhp but the chassis was definitely set up to make the absolute most of it. If I were the Sultan of Brunei (but with better petrolhead taste), I'd have this car in my collection, and have run in on the 'Ring as well as brought out regularly to answer that exact question - would the car be competitive against modern DTM cars, or current JGTC cars (note that AWD isn't permitted in JGTC thanks to the Skyline, so what kind of an edge would it gain against the modern racers?) Last edited by kismetcapitan; 30th July 2008 at 09:15 AM.

30th July 2008, 12:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
moleman Administrator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In the bushes, watching YOU!!! Posts: 7,566	GT500 and DTM cars are essentially F1 cars in a dress and nothing like the road cars their bodies happen to represent and in racing terms are considered a step in single seat racing as far as career progression goes. At Le Mans now the GT1 cars are not much slower than the Prototypes. They are a long way from Grp A etc. The Calsonic 32 was, and still is, awesome but 20 years of racing development means it can't be compared to contemporary equivalents. __________________ I'd love to stop and chat, but you're an idiot. Ich liebe die Grüne Hölle. Only ABBEY MOTORSPORT, CATDT and SPINAL TAP go up to eleven! Don't ask a stupid question, try FAQ and Search first.

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30th July 2008, 08:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
SteveN GTR Register Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just off the M5/A40 Posts: 7,172	What helped it be so special is massivley wide slicks all round, something thats not allowed in Time Attack.

30th July 2008, 09:31 AM	#4 (permalink)
Lee_Pendlebury GTR Register Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: W.Sussex Posts: 1,348	It would be miles away from DTM or JGTC. Times move on, and the regs allow for more in both of those series anyway than Group A ever did.

30th July 2008, 09:58 AM	#5 (permalink)
SteveN GTR Register Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just off the M5/A40 Posts: 7,172	kismetcapitan- Would be nothing that special TBH. They didnt exactly defeat everyone with ease. Not even the 4wd would be that special. A lot of the race cars ive seen have had it adjusted for fixed torque split, with a dial, so its always 50-50 or whatever the dial is turned to, regardless of acceleration, cornering, or braking. If it wasnt that, it would be similar to that Skylab TSC setup idve thought. Agree with Lee, these days theyd get murdered against the modern equivalents.

30th July 2008, 11:24 AM	#8 (permalink)
SteveN GTR Register Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Just off the M5/A40 Posts: 7,172	Why the chuckle about the slicks? Its a fact, they had over twice the tyre contact patch to put the power down compared to the entire opposition, doesnt take a genius to see that as a HUGE advantage does it. I dont know the entire spec of them, but DO know what was allowed within GrpA Homologation rules at the time so know what wouldve been done, and what wouldnt. Without a shadow of a doubt they were VERY modified, but nothing much you couldnt replicate today. So fire away mate, tell us these miraculous things done that makes them totally amazing even by todays standards...

30th July 2008, 12:13 PM	#10 (permalink)
RamRod GTROC Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 220	Interesting.. I expect modern racing cars will be faster, so long as the rules haven't changed too much for instance limiting power to 200BHp etc. Do you think its unreasonable to think tuner R32 cars are quicker? For instance the DCY 800Hp car?

30th July 2008, 12:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
kismetcapitan GTR Register Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seoul Korea Posts: 6,401	I just checked lap times at Fuji Speedway, and it appears that the Calsonic R32 would not be shamed. Fastest Group A laptime is 1:31.131 done in an R32. The R35 racecar posted a pole-position time of 1:34.878 this year. However, a 1:23.886 was done in a Toyota Supra (GT500 class) in 2003, and Lewis Hamilton holds the F1 record with a.....1:24.753!

30th July 2008, 12:41 PM	#13 (permalink)
kismetcapitan GTR Register Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Seoul Korea Posts: 6,401	one interesting note is that the current GT500 cars are significantly faster than FIA GT1 cars - a Maserati MC12 (king of the GT1 class) had to withdraw from Suzuka as it was losing a full second PER LAP to the rest of the field!! the downside is that GT500 cars are nothing like the roadgoing versions - nothing similar between the new GT-R racecar and the R35...except the taillights. Same with the much-desired R34 - the GT500 R34 is one of my most desired cars, and yet I now fully understand why there is no bodykit for an R34 - the bootlid and the passenger cell are the same, but that's it, and even in the passenger cell, the driver sits at least a foot or so behind the normal driving position in an R34.