Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating at 'Ring

[Robbie J]

Apart from the apparent badge snobbery which is unfortunately clearly evident, the biggest question mark raised by GTR detractors is the WEIGHT. Everyone knows the GTR is anything but light and in most peoples experience, including my own, weight kills everything. People cannot accept that with circa 480hp and 1700kg plus that this car can do what it does. Even as a pre-order customer I do have my doubts, despite my trip round Silverstone. The DCT, AWD and weight distribution all positively contribute but having looked at this months EVO I have some difficulty understanding how the GTR can get within 5-6 seconds (over 13 odd miles) of the Zonda F, Carrera GT, Enzo and MC12.

traction on corners that means you can keep speed up, trick gearbox doesn't loses much when you change gear

John was following in my simular powered R33 today but instant gear changes on the R35 made it easier to pull away

Its a fun thread, why do some people take this so seriously, Porsche makes lots of money on its cars and is not happy with Nissan eating its lunch. My team sells to Porsche, its true they are not happy + credit crunch/oil prices. It's not good for this sector at the moment

Nissan makes lots of money on R35, BTW

[Robbie J]

September Auto Sales: Porsche US sales fall
Wednesday October 1, 2:15 pm ET
Porsche Cars North America September sales slide as economic woes slam luxury automaker

ATLANTA (AP) -- Porsche Cars North America Inc. said Wednesday its September U.S. sales slipped as the tightening economy ate away at volumes.

Total sales fell 45 percent to 1,458 from 2,641 in the same period last year.

GTR launched few months earlier in the US?

[Howsie]

Originally Posted by Guy

What I can say for certain, having owned a 997GT2 (just sold it) and having driven the R35 at the GTR Acadamy, is that their overall performance is very similar, but the GTR is much much easier to drive and more confidence inspiring.

The relative price tags make it a laughable comparison anyway, My GT2 cost me £137k, my GTR will be £57k. The GT2 might be a few percent better, but at 240% of the price it damn well should be. Thats what makes the GTR so remarkable, not whether it is a few seconds faster or slower than a GT2, but that it's that close at that price.

Hi Guy, what made you get rid of the GT2 so soon?

[Guy]

Originally Posted by Howsie

Hi Guy, what made you get rid of the GT2 so soon?

I just felt it was about to drop in value, given the current market and also whilst it's good it's never going to be a Porsche classic the way that the GT3RS is for instance. Plus I've still got the other GT2 and far too many other cars, so thought this was best offloaded to slightly reduce numbers. I also was able to get over list for it and wanted to capture that value whilst it lasted.

So primarily driven by economics rather than issues with the car.

[Howsie]

You've no heart Guy, none at all. How's the CSL btw? They seem to be holding their value rather well at the moment.

[Guy]

Originally Posted by Howsie

You've no heart Guy, none at all. How's the CSL btw? They seem to be holding their value rather well at the moment.

I sold the black one and bought a silver/grey one with only 3,800 miles on it. I mostly drive the Alpina B5 on road these days though, fast yet discreet....

[gtrlux]

Originally Posted by Guy

What I can say for certain, having owned a 997GT2 (just sold it) and having driven the R35 at the GTR Acadamy, is that their overall performance is very similar, but the GTR is much much easier to drive and more confidence inspiring.

The relative price tags make it a laughable comparison anyway, My GT2 cost me £137k, my GTR will be £57k. The GT2 might be a few percent better, but at 240% of the price it damn well should be. Thats what makes the GTR so remarkable, not whether it is a few seconds faster or slower than a GT2, but that it's that close at that price.

That's actually what I wanted to hear. And I would even say that the reason the GTR costs 87k less then the GT2 is not that the GT2 has 87k more and better parts on the car or the developpement was carried out on Jupiter.

Nissan made big savings and killed off about 1500 sub Nissan companies in 2000 when Goshn took over. The ones they didn't kill off are the main production suppliers and the performance parts suppliers. Japan has the best hight tech mass production industry in the world, and that is why the GTR can only cost what it cost.
Porsche is no mass production company and I think that the high quality of their cars costs actually, really, that expensive to produce in germany! (without enourmous margins for Porsche, even if they benefit with the premium image of course) . . . . .if they would be a japanese company they would produce the same stuff for half of the price.
That has also nothing to do with Nissan being better then Porsche, it's just an other style of business and industry. Europe has never been chaep and really capable on quality massproduction. Porsche GT2 is a master piece of what a single company Porsche can achieve with what is possible in europe. The GTR is not a Nissan achievement , it's a japanese mosaic of hightech suppliers that can offre hightech parts and production efficiency to Nissan in order to achieve the production of the GTR for 1/3 of the GT2.

Let's stand by the fact that Porsches are the greatest achievement of a single company-groupe (VW) in europe with it's own limits and the R35 the greatest achievement of an entire industry that has never been shy to out source and take what ever it can, from any where to produce hightech for 1/3 of a price of the rest of the world.

Complete different worlds and approaches.

[Robbie J]

Porsche make a lot of money on each car, production in Germany is more expensive than some countries but not that much. There is a big industrial support for car manufactures in Germany, you have BMW, Merc, Man, VW etc etc.

Porsche sell a "premium" package and charge for it

As I said "Porsche make a lot of money on each car fullstop"

R

[gtrlux]

Originally Posted by Robbie J

Porsche make a lot of money on each car, production in Germany is more expensive than some countries but not that much. There is a big industrial support for car manufactures in Germany, you have BMW, Merc, Man, VW etc etc.

Porsche sell a "premium" package and charge for it

As I said "Porsche make a lot of money on each car fullstop"

R

Of course they make profit , but overall Porsche doesn't really make big profit with cars. Last year they made about 11Billion Euro Profit, which is actually amazing . .but not from cars only.
From thoses 11 Billions only 1,2 Billions were made from car sales and Porsche related goods. The other 9.8Billions were pure market shares profits and other succesfull businesses (5,9Billions were attribuated to the new value of their 31% shares in VW, Share business made 3,5Billions + other stuff made the rest millions)

[Scott]

Originally Posted by gtrlux

Porsche GT2 is a master piece of what a single company Porsche can achieve with what is possible in europe. The GTR is not a Nissan achievement , it's a japanese mosaic of hightech suppliers that can offre hightech parts and production efficiency to Nissan in order to achieve the production of the GTR for 1/3 of the GT2.....

What on earth makes you think Porshe do everything in house and don't use/rely on suppliers like Nissan????

Having worked on Porsches, but never for Porshe, I can tell you both companys, and all large OEMs for that matter, work in the same way.

[Yakozan]

Originally Posted by Scott

What on earth makes you think Porshe do everything in house and don't use/rely on suppliers like Nissan????

Having worked on Porsches, but never for Porshe, I can tell you both companys, and all large OEMs for that matter, work in the same way.

I think that GTRlux means that Nissan is so much bigger than just cars. they have alot of other companies under their umbrella they can use to develop parts and get them for good prices.

Nissan Automotive use suppliers just like Porsche. But they have alot of sister companies which they can use for discounted prices unlike Porsche who needs to use alot of "outside" companies.

This is what I thik grlux means
Didn't know Nissan was so big. I know Toyota and Mitsubishi are.

[michaelsk]

Nissans responce:

We didn't cheat with GT-R 'Ring time, says Nissan - drive.com.au



Nissan defends legitimacy of GT-R supercar's record lap time against suspicions raised by rival Porsche. By ANDREW HEASLEY in Paris.


Nissan GT-R
Nissan has hit back at suspicions raised by Porsche this week that the record Nurburgring lap time set by the GT-R supercar was achieved in anything other than a standard showroom-specification car.

The matter has reached top brass at Nissan, with its European spokesman at the Paris motor show today confirming the matter has gone ''quite high'' up in the company.

A senior Porsche engineer, August Achleitner, who supervises the development of all 911 sports cars, sparked controversy when he told Australian journalists at the launch of the new 911 Targa in Verona, Italy, this week that they were unable to replicate the record 7 minute 29 second lap time that Nissan claimed the GT-R set in April.

In the hands of a Porsche chassis engineer, the GT-R was 20 seconds slower than a 911 GT2 and 16 seconds slower than a Porsche 911 Turbo.

Achleitner questioned whether the GT-R was running a standard set-up on road tyres or perhaps something more track-oriented.

“Quite simply we're not going to get into a war of words with Porsche,” said Nissan's European spokesman Neil Reeve. “The final word from us is that it was done on absolutely standard tyres which are available to customers in the showroom.They're not trick tyres – absolutely standard tyres, normal road tyres.

“The GT-R comes with Bridgestone and Goodyear (Dunlop). One tyre gives slightly better times around the 'Ring.

“We did it on Dunlop. They're available with the car,” he said.

He was at a loss to explain the disparity over the lap time differences.

“I don't know, honestly I can't explain. I don't think it's for us to explain how they didn't match our time,” Mr Reeve said.

“We absolutely maintain (that) Tochio Suzuki - the chief test driver on the GT-R program pounded thousands of laps - he got to know every inch of Nurburgring (circuit) and how the car performs on the Nurburgring and hence set that fabulous lap. More than that, I can't speculate. I can't explain why they couldn't match the time.”

“We maintain that ... nothing special was done to the car.”

He conceded that the controversy might play on the minds of potential GT-R buyers. Fast lap times of the famous 21-kilometre German circuit are increasingy being used by car companies for bragging rights over performance and engineering prowess.

“The people who'd buy a GT-R or 911 Turbo are not the type of people to make a purchase like that lightly. They going to do an incredible amount of research, they're going to read every single road test that's available in every magazine which is on the internet and they're going to draw their own conclusion. Will it put doubt in their mind? They might find it surprising. In our experience in Europe, the GT-R has widely matched, at least, if not beaten, the 911 Turbo on various track tests. They can draw their own conclusions.

“We think its performance speaks for itself,'' he said.

Reeve wouldn't rule out the possibility of a rematch for the world to see.

“We're considering our options. We're not saying more than that,” he said.

“This (Porsche's questioning of Nissan's claim) happened two days ago, it was a surprising thing to read in the press, it's important.

“But let's not blow it out of all proportion. We're not crying about it. We're not going to sook about it.

“I'm cheeky enough to say it's flattering that Porsche have bought themselves a GT-R and flown it to Germany, they want to try it. I guess that's some kind of stamp of approval.

“It's great to have the competition. We're absolutely proud of the GT-R. It's a fabulous sports car, really epic.

“The level of performance that it delivers is really so impressive for the price it's positioned at,” he said.

[stealth]

Porsche have got a decent car then

[GT-Racer]

Until a completely independent body run their own tests, there will always be people doubting these results. Of course the Nissan test driver is going to be able to push the car to the limit more than that of the Porsche engineer. To settle the contest, we need to fly the Stig to the Ring and test the 911 vs GTR once and for all!

Come on Top Gear, get it sorted!!!

[Stachi]

In the End, it's up to each others taste which car to buy. I never bought a car because of test results and even if I have that kind of money to spend, I wouldn't change my way of test driving cars and buying what I like the most.

Marc