Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating at 'Ring

[Fuzzy]

Nissan say: We didn't cheat with GT-R 'Ring time

Nissan defends legitimacy of GT-R supercar's record lap time against suspicions raised by rival Porsche. By ANDREW HEASLEY in Paris.

Nissan has hit back at suspicions raised by Porsche this week that the record Nurburgring lap time set by the GT-R supercar was achieved in anything other than a standard showroom-specification car.

The matter has reached top brass at Nissan, with its European spokesman at the Paris motor show today confirming the matter has gone ''quite high'' up in the company.

A senior Porsche engineer, August Achleitner, who supervises the development of all 911 sports cars, sparked controversy when he told Australian journalists at the launch of the new 911 Targa in Verona, Italy, this week that they were unable to replicate the record 7 minute 29 second lap time that Nissan claimed the GT-R set in April.

In the hands of a Porsche chassis engineer, the GT-R was 20 seconds slower than a 911 GT2 and 16 seconds slower than a Porsche 911 Turbo.

Achleitner questioned whether the GT-R was running a standard set-up on road tyres or perhaps something more track-oriented.

“Quite simply we're not going to get into a war of words with Porsche,” said Nissan's European spokesman Neil Reeve. “The final word from us is that it was done on absolutely standard tyres which are available to customers in the showroom.They're not trick tyres – absolutely standard tyres, normal road tyres.

“The GT-R comes with Bridgestone and Goodyear (Dunlop). One tyre gives slightly better times around the 'Ring.

“We did it on Dunlop. They're available with the car,” he said.

He was at a loss to explain the disparity over the lap time differences.

“I don't know, honestly I can't explain. I don't think it's for us to explain how they didn't match our time,” Mr Reeve said.

“We absolutely maintain (that) Tochio Suzuki - the chief test driver on the GT-R program pounded thousands of laps - he got to know every inch of Nurburgring (circuit) and how the car performs on the Nurburgring and hence set that fabulous lap. More than that, I can't speculate. I can't explain why they couldn't match the time.”

“We maintain that ... nothing special was done to the car.”

He conceded that the controversy might play on the minds of potential GT-R buyers. Fast lap times of the famous 21-kilometre German circuit are increasingy being used by car companies for bragging rights over performance and engineering prowess.

“The people who'd buy a GT-R or 911 Turbo are not the type of people to make a purchase like that lightly. They going to do an incredible amount of research, they're going to read every single road test that's available in every magazine which is on the internet and they're going to draw their own conclusion. Will it put doubt in their mind? They might find it surprising. In our experience in Europe, the GT-R has widely matched, at least, if not beaten, the 911 Turbo on various track tests. They can draw their own conclusions.

“We think its performance speaks for itself,'' he said.

Reeve wouldn't rule out the possibility of a rematch for the world to see.

“We're considering our options. We're not saying more than that,” he said.

“This (Porsche's questioning of Nissan's claim) happened two days ago, it was a surprising thing to read in the press, it's important.

“But let's not blow it out of all proportion. We're not crying about it. We're not going to sook about it.

“I'm cheeky enough to say it's flattering that Porsche have bought themselves a GT-R and flown it to Germany, they want to try it. I guess that's some kind of stamp of approval.

“It's great to have the competition. We're absolutely proud of the GT-R. It's a fabulous sports car, really epic.

“The level of performance that it delivers is really so impressive for the price it's positioned at,” he said.


We didn't cheat with GT-R 'Ring time, says Nissan - drive.com.au

[TheDefiantOne]

Originally Posted by gtrlux

I am sorry but it is not only now that the japanese come with a revolutionary car to rival Porsche and Ferrari, the two big names amongst super performance cars for the last 40 years. The japanese allways limited them selves to 280HP and allways tried to offre performance cars for the avarage japanese salary man since back in the 80. I mean the Supra, GTR, NSX, RX7, GTO and Evos could have had at least 400+HP back then, and blowing the competition to the oblivion . . . BMW, Audi, Porsche up to Ferrari can only be happy that the japanese makers restricted them selves to their ultra conservative-safty oriented home market in the last 20years . . . which is about to change. And very soon the western performance car market will know how much the western consumers have changed, new generations, who haven't grown up with Quattro, Countach, Testarosso and Samantha Fox posters . . .but with posters of Initial D, Skyline GTR, GranT. and Bangbros . . . . times are changing.

I didn't mean to imply that this is the first time that Japanese companies have used revolutionary technology in car manufacturing because as you've rightly pointed out many have come and gone with legendary results.

But, and there is a but, look at the efforts of other Japanese manufacturers in the current climate and their results are either disappointing (Lexus IS-F, Impreza STI, EVO X) or non-competitive and canned (Lexus LF-A). Nissan have revolutionised this market with not just a competitor but a LEADER.

The BHP limitation argument is a valid one but some Euro Spec models (Subaru Impreza, Mitsubishi Evo's etc) were not subject to the same limits as there Japanese counterparts and weren't true supercar killers.

[axolotl]

thanks nissan for confirming that the dunlops are available with the car We didn't cheat with GT-R 'Ring time, says Nissan - drive.com.au
some of us might hold you to that
the dunlop is available it is true as original equipment in some countries already but the fact that this is coming from a nissan europe spokesman makes me hopeful that when the finalised spec is announced there might be some choice of tyres available.
Great post by the way Fuzzy

[gtrlux]

Originally Posted by TheDefiantOne

I didn't mean to imply that this is the first time that Japanese companies have used revolutionary technology in car manufacturing because as you've rightly pointed out many have come and gone with legendary results.

But, and there is a but, look at the efforts of other Japanese manufacturers in the current climate and their results are either disappointing (Lexus IS-F, Impreza STI, EVO X) or non-competitive and canned (Lexus LF-A). Nissan have revolutionised this market with not just a competitor but a LEADER.

The BHP limitation argument is a valid one but some Euro Spec models (Subaru Impreza, Mitsubishi Evo's etc) were not subject to the same limits as there Japanese counterparts and weren't true supercar killers.

Yeah you are right, beside Nissan there is nobody at the moment with a serious supercar contender.
I think the reason the japanese Scoobies and Evos were still limited to their 280HP (next to the EU-RX7-NSX-Supra . . .) is that there was not enough market share to actually produce the cars in the 400HP dream spec just for outside japan.(not profitable , as this would have been a complete different style of business of how the jap.industry was configured)
Japanese makers build cars for the japanese consumers in first place and then they think what money they can make aboard with the rest of the world. Thanks to some non-jap. pioneers amongst managers who entered japanese makers, we can see since about 10 years now, specific cars build for foreign markets.

I allways say:Let's wait for Mazda to show the world what they can do with a new RX7, Honda with a new NSX and Toyota with a new Supra/LF-A . .then the regular models, like Evos, RX8s, Integras ex . . will also up the benchmarks in their fields..

[Huy]

Interesting.

So, i guess that means all the online video and magazine comparisons where the GTR comes out on top are cheating, too?

[TheDefiantOne]

Originally Posted by gtrlux

Yeah you are right, beside Nissan there is nobody at the moment with a serious supercar contender.
I think the reason the japanese Scoobies and Evos were still limited to their 280HP (next to the EU-RX7-NSX-Supra . . .) is that there was not enough market share to actually produce the cars in the 400HP dream spec just for outside japan.(not profitable , as this would have been a complete different style of business of how the jap.industry was configured)
Japanese makers build cars for the japanese consumers in first place and then they think what money they can make aboard with the rest of the world. Thanks to some non-jap. pioneers amongst managers who entered japanese makers, we can see since about 10 years now, specific cars build for foreign markets.

I allways say:Let's wait for Mazda to show the world what they can do with a new RX7, Honda with a new NSX and Toyota with a new Supra/LF-A . .then the regular models, like Evos, RX8s, Integras ex . . will also up the benchmarks in their fields..

Very true and there are some exciting times ahead!

[doggiehowser]

Did a search for this old Glenn Nakata analysis from the 7:38 days

Nissan GT-R Nurburgring Lap Analysis

[gtrlux]

Originally Posted by doggiehowser

Did a search for this old Glenn Nakata analysis from the 7:38 days

Nissan GT-R Nurburgring Lap Analysis

LOL thanks doggie. Have missed that thread last year.

Basicly this data is from which source?, I mean if it can be found on this forum, it would also have been possible for Porsche to analyse it and contradict it's interpretation or originality as a proof. . . . . . ???
Such data sheets are big proves actually . . . at least the 20 secondes gap that Porsche claims is eradicated with this, as this data allows max 1-3 secondes possible time variations.

[tokyogtr]

so are porsche saying the topgear team cheated too?

[doggiehowser]

Glenn was covering the official GTR launch in Oct last year and had access to interviews etc during press briefings. Looks like the data was taken from a camera (looked like flash reflection on the screen).

[kismetcapitan]

practically speaking, Porsche looks like a gaggle of idiots to make a press statement like this, in the face of overwhelming evidence that the 911 Turbo simply underperforms the GT-R, not by much, but consistently.

But Porsche does have its own clientele, and Porsche loyalists are rather fierce in that loyalty. Just as we're somewhat blinded being Nissan fans, Porschephiles are completely loyal. I imagine Porsche boards have been up in arms at every defeat of the 911 in whatever test, wondering how the hell an overweight JAPANESE car can outperform the venerable 911 Turbo. If you'd paid the money for one, you might even start to get a bit bent out of shape.

But a word from the factory that the GT-Rs 'Ring performance is "unrepeatable" and a whopping 20 seconds off, will go a long way to calm and assure Porsche customers, present and potential, even if it's total bullshit.

In other words, there's the truth, and then there's business. Porsche isn't doing anything that the credit market hasn't already been doing for a decade

[tokyogtr]

what are the credentials of the porsche driver? it wasn't walter so who was it? the nissan driver did "thousands" of laps. that's worth 20secs alone over someone who's only done a few hundred.

[dtp]

Originally Posted by tokyogtr

so are porsche saying the topgear team cheated too?

Everyone is cheating except.............................















































PORSCHE

[Haywire]

I am glad Nissan have acknowledged this obvious slander (!) but this was not an OFFICIAL statement from PAG, just a chassis engineer commenting at a hack launch wasnt it? I have never driven at the ring but the sheer number of variables must mean an allowance of a big variance in times depending on tyre condition, weather around the circuit, familiarity of the car; the list goes on...

[R33_GTS-t]

It's a long lap. A tenth on every corner adds up to nearly 15 full seconds over a lap.