Pre and Post "Track Day" Inspections - The practicalities..

[Zed Ed]

Nissan must speak soon

They could be delivering cars in 6 weeks!

[turbobungle]

Just got an email from Motorline which confirms absolutely nothing!!!! Here is how it went:-

Good afternoon,

First off, the following are my own views, and in no way reflect the views
of either Motorline or Nissan Motors GB.

As I indicated previously, the Nissan guys in Bordeaux last week stated that
the VDC is "for mud, ice and loose surfaces, at slow speeds only" and use in
any other circumstances would constitute abuse, therefore rendering the
warranty void.
As I understand it, and I am not necessarily up to speed with some of the
cars competitors, most manufacturers program their VDC (or equivalent) so
that it automatically turns back on above a certain speed, even on cars with
significantly less power than GT-R, so in these instances, the system would
actually not allow any such abuse. Obviously I cant comment as to why Nissan
have felt the need to change their description of the merits or operation of
VDC, but given the bullet-proof reputation held by previous Skylines etc, I
cant imagine its because they dot have confidence in their own product.
What we need to remember with this car is the simple fact that the laws of
physics will always have an impact on what is possible to safely acheive in
a vehicle weighing in excess of 1.8 tons including driver. Imagine trying to
get a Landcruiser or Shogun off the line that quick without breaking it!
In terms of other manufacturers not voiding their warranties, all I would
say is that if you were to be honest and open with a Porsche or Lamborghini
Dealer and tell them "I'm sitting on the start line at Brands Hatch, with a
number stuck on my doors and a novice cross in my window, and my gearbox has
just gone bang" they probably wouldnt be too quick to send the RAC out to
you, let alone pay for the new gearbox! In essence, what I'm trying to say
is that perhaps Nissan has just decided to be up front with regards the
track thing, effectively admitting up front that a warranty is not for race
cars, its for raod cars, and when this car is on a track, its effectively a
race car.
I've no doubt some customers will choose not to have the pre-track checks,
and will race at their own risk, perhaps towing the car out onto the M1
before calling the RAC. Whether Nissan will be able to tell if it broke
there or on a track, I really dont know, but they are certainly within their
rights to try to minimise their exposure to such things.
As for pre and post Track Checks, again, this is something that has been
suggested to us, but as far as costs are concerned, nothing has been
announced as yet. Nissan have indicated that they will require owners to
bring their cars in to the HPC's for a Pre-Track inspection, which may or
may not include an oil and filter change, but will most certainly involve a
geometry and brake system check, along with tyres etc. At this point, they
will consider the car as "outside the realms of normal use" and as such will
effectively render the warranty as void. However, once the car has been to
the track, the customer is then required to return to the HPC for a
Post-Track inspection, which again will involve full geometry, brake system
and tyre check, and again perhaps an oil and filter change and gearbox
inspection. Once this inspection has been satisfactorily completed, the n
Nissan will re-instate the warranty as they will now consider the car as fit
for normal use.
Again, I cant speak for Nissan in terms of why they have chosen to go this
route, as believe me, this is causing no end of anxiety for us Dealers
having to try and justify these late announcements.
As for maintenance costs, again, this question was raised with Nissan at
every oppertunity when in France, but as yet they have not responded to us
with any idea of costings. In fact, the literature given to us in Bordeaux
indicated 6mth/6000 mile servicing plus the intial free set-up check at 1200
miles, whereas the Technicians were told in Paris that the car will be
running to 2yr/18000 mile intervals, but again, nothing was confirmed in
writing.
I would imagine, and this is purely my own thoughts and not those of
Motorline or Nissan, that the labour rate will be in keeping with our
competitors (ie upto around £100-130 per hour) with servicing times varying
from 2 to 5 hrs dependant on age/mileage etc, but again, as I understand it,
these rates etc will be set by Nissan and not the individual HPC's.
I fully sympathise with customers who feel that not enough information has
been made available and can assure you that as a Dealer, we will be looking
to make the whole ownership experience as enjoyable and painless as
possible, as well as making information available as soon as we are
physically able.
As for customers who wish to cancel, I would urge them to either make their
decisions sooner rather than later if they hope to get any deposits
returned, or just hang on, get the car, use the car and then sell if they
feel that costs are not in keeping with the performance on offer.

I'm sorry I cant give any thing more firm, but assure you that I will make
information available as soon as I have it.

Thanks for your patience

Sean Sullivan

Read into that whatever you want. But it would seem that they have no clue about the GTR whatsoever, don't seem to understand the difference between racing and track days and don't have a clue about the new type of customer they are trying to nab from Porsche etc.

Did I hear somewhere that any HPC will collect/deliver your GTR with a lorry free of charge for servicing etc????

[wheely]

Originally Posted by ferdi p

Wheely - I think your bang on..!!
Why on earth a driveshaft snapped on this supercar 'slayer' is very worrying indeed..
So you did a few 360's, so what!?
It just goes to show that its not that easy to come along & make a better product than all the other manufacturers who have years of pedigree in fast road cars (GT3, f430, Gallardo etc,etc)
My GTR arrives in June & I'm getting more concerned with my choice daily ..
I genuinely hope that Wheely's experience is a rare one, otherwise mine will be up for sale quicker than 7mins 29seconds

thanks for agreeing ,we will see in the 12 months how many break an how many recalls there are

still a great car to drive

[Aerodramatics]

Originally Posted by turbobungle

...As I indicated previously, the Nissan guys in Bordeaux last week stated that the VDC is "for mud, ice and loose surfaces, at slow speeds only" and use in any other circumstances would constitute abuse, therefore rendering the warranty void...

In essence, what I'm trying to say is that perhaps Nissan has just decided to be up front with regards the track thing, effectively admitting up front that a warranty is not for race cars, its for raod cars, and when this car is on a track, its effectively a race car...

...Whether Nissan will be able to tell if it broke there or on a track, I really dont know, but they are certainly within their rights to try to minimise their exposure to such things...

At this point, they will consider the car as "outside the realms of normal use" and as such will effectively render the warranty as void. ...

I don't know what Motorline think, but the majority of our contracts were made on the basis of the clear Nissan representation that "VDC off is for when the driver does not want the assistance of the system", i.e. it confirmed to us that the car was fit for the purpose of track and handling days.

The car has been globally advertised as a supercar for anyone, anywhere, anytime. Note, the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of a supercar: "A high performance sports car, i.e. a car built for performance at speed". I can understand this, can't they?

Driving safely, legally and responsibly on a track for performance at speed is using the GT-R exactly as it has been represented and well within the realms of normal use I do contend. No competitive racing or lap time trials are permited on track days, i.e. it is totally non-competitive and all about the driver learning car control. No way is a 480bhp, 195mph car intended exclusively for normal road use.

Nissan has no "right" to read data from our computers. They and the data on them are our property. Removal without our consent is theft.

We've all waited a long 12+ months for this car on the promise of something very special for road and track. I for one intend to hold Nissan to each and every one of its promises whether Nissan like it or not. They need to read the Sales of Goods Act before they take deposits

The total failure to understand what a track day is, is lamentable.

Still, again, at least the HPC is trying, even if Nissan is not.

[Bodi]

They had enough time to get this ready for Japan and the USA so why so does it take so long for us here in the UK to get any info. Wish i could understand.

[stealth]

Lets hope the drive shaft is a one off ,Does anyone know roughly how many gear box's/transmissions have let go over the last 14 months or so ?

[Guy]

An email from an employee of a dealer is sadly of little use or guidance on this ridiculous issue. What we need is a statement from Nissan GB on this issue.

As for what Porsche or others do they clearly have no clue whatsoever and cannot be bothered to ask the existing owners of such cars what their policies were.

As for VDC turning back on at speed, thats just nonsense. For the record:

On Porsche GT3/GT2/CGT, turning off PSM or T/C is permanent, ie it does not come back on in ANY circumstance and using it off does not constitute abuse or void the warranty. Abuse is deliberate behaviour that the car is not designed for, such as doing donuts or over-revving.

On the other Porsches, which are more road-biased and not advertised as trackcars or with ring times, if PSM is turned off it will only come in if the ABS is activated and the car has lost control. Again having it off does not void the warranty.

BMW as per CSL or M3/M5. ESP off stays off completely and does not affect warranty.

THIS IS NOW A VERY SORRY JOKE AND NISSAN NEED TO SPEAK IN PUBLIC URGENTLY AS TO WHAT THE FACTS ARE.

[Aerodramatics]

Originally Posted by Rich001

I don't know much about how the clutches and gearbox all work but is the clutch not submerged in the gearbox oil (wet clutch) and does this not have something to do with why it needs changing so frequent? Dont ask me just a thought.

I must agree that if this is the only way to stop the GT-R's transmission from eating itself within the first 60k its a very poor design.

Cant understand why wheelys driveshaft should snap. I can imagine it breaking the diff but not the driveshaft. Doughnuts not good for 4WD cars I guess.

People wouldn't mind so much if Trans was cheap but it isn't so its not on.

Rich, wet clutches generally last much better than dry, and BorgWarner states that their GR6 clutch pack is good for 150 000 miles. A lot of sports bikes have wet clutches.

Over on NAGTROC it seems to be the gears that are failing on the transmissions when they let go, not the clutch packs.

Agreed, it's not on!

[turbobungle]

Originally Posted by stealth

Lets hope the drive shaft is a one off ,Does anyone know roughly how many gear box's/transmissions have let go over the last 14 months or so ?

I found this on Edmunds Inside Line although it is only based on US sales:

According to Nissan, "less than 1 percent" of the transaxles in the GT-Rs delivered to customers in the United States have failed in some way. With somewhere between 1,750 and 1,800 GT-Rs in the garages of American enthusiasts, this puts the number of transaxle failures experienced in this country at somewhere between 16 and 19 cars. This is not an insignificant number of GT-Rs, but it's short of an epidemic of transaxle failures.

1%. So far. Not insignificant.

[axolotl]

I may be missing something but surely less than 1% means less than the numbers that you quoted. for example if they had problems with four cars out of 1750 that would also be less than 1%

[Aerodramatics]

Originally Posted by Guy

THIS IS NOW A VERY SORRY JOKE AND NISSAN NEED TO SPEAK IN PUBLIC URGENTLY AS TO WHAT THE FACTS ARE.

Agreed, but for the moment, we are patiently waiting for Nissan to respond to the club's questions via Fuggles as Chairman. I hopes it's soon and I hope it's in full.

I also hope that if other buyers read this thread and have any concerns, that they register their interest on our club list. The more of us who voice our concern, the more weight the club has in representing our viewpoint over this issue.

Remember, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

So, don't be shy. Sign up. It's easy and free too!

[Aerodramatics]

"I want to track my GT-R !" Say it loud, say it proud!

1. Sumo 69 (David)
2. Turbobungle
3. Aerodramatics (Dom)
4. Peterpeter
5. Guy
6. Marcyt21
7. Maxxwaxx
8. Ferdi_p
9. Supraman
10. Scrappy
11. duka
12. Purple Haze
13. BT52 (Mark)
14. sjc
15. Paul T
16. EvolutionVI
17. Sin
18. R1Mark
19. Tomgtr
20. TrickyB
21. Oaky
22. bigfra
23. ElvisDrivesAGTR

[Oaky]

I might not have wanted to track the car. I definitely don't want to slip c.£60k to a company that can't even be bothered to show me contempt.

A little contempt would be nice.

[BT52]

Originally Posted by some guy who clearly doesn't even know what a trackday is

As I understand it, and I am not necessarily up to speed with some of the
cars competitors, most manufacturers program their VDC (or equivalent) so
that it automatically turns back on above a certain speed, even on cars with
significantly less power than GT-R

What sports/performance cars specifically? Even Mercedes allow you to turn it off properly on the more sports oriented AMG nutter-power heavyweights!

What car anywhere near the GTR's ballpark in terms of what it is all about enforces TC at all times? And name me ONE other car that actually invalidates the warranty if you turn it off via a specifically made dashboard button for that very purpose.

It's ludicrous.

[EvolutionVI]

Originally Posted by Aerodramatics

I don't know what Motorline think, but the majority of our contracts were made on the basis of the clear Nissan representation that "VDC off is for when the driver does not want the assistance of the system", i.e. it confirmed to us that the car was fit for the purpose of track and handling days.

The car has been globally advertised as a supercar for anyone, anywhere, anytime. Note, the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of a supercar: "A high performance sports car, i.e. a car built for performance at speed". I can understand this, can't they?

Driving safely, legally and responsibly on a track for performance at speed is using the GT-R exactly as it has been represented and well within the realms of normal use I do contend. No competitive racing or lap time trials are permited on track days, i.e. it is totally non-competitive and all about the driver learning car control. No way is a 480bhp, 195mph car intended exclusively for normal road use.

Nissan has no "right" to read data from our computers. They and the data on them are our property. Removal without our consent is theft.

We've all waited a long 12+ months for this car on the promise of something very special for road and track. I for one intend to hold Nissan to each and every one of its promises whether Nissan like it or not. They need to read the Sales of Goods Act before they take deposits

The total failure to understand what a track day is, is lamentable.

Still, again, at least the HPC is trying, even if Nissan is not.

Exactly,nothing wrong with these words....if my dealer tells me that the car must see a pre and after trackday inspection,i will send him pictures of it pre and after....but for sure not the car..if i wear my tyres,i will put other ones one...simple,as i allready have two sets of rims....

Simple questions to Nissan: Am i voiding my warranty if i dont have the stock wheels on?? Have the wheels on the car for the pre trackday inspection to be the stock ones or do i need to put my trackday wheelsset on?? Am i allowed to decide what i do with my car or do i need to ask Mister Nissan first befor i can go on a trackday... Am i allowed to wear my GTR helmet or do i need to leave that at home(or sell the 2 helmets i have on ebay)

I dont care a second about what Nissan tells me,if they want to go to court regarding warranty if something breaks,then i whish them good luck,german judge will tell them whats right and whats wrong....

PS: And yes,they are not even allowed to read data regarding your drivingstyle of the computer,its my computer,not theirs,i payed it...