Pre and Post "Track Day" Inspections - The practicalities..

[Guy]

Originally Posted by Zed Ed

The tone of much discussion on here, reflects people who seem to want 'Escort Popular Plus' costs and hassle-free ownership experience, but with Ferrari performance. Dream on.

Not true at all. I expect the car to eat tyres and brakes if tracked and have no problem with that. However, Porsche GT2s and GT3s that are owned by myself and friends do anywhere between 5 and 20 trackdays a year and still only require one service, without any issues at all. They certainly don't need to go the dealer before and after a trackday each time, if that were the case, some of those cars would require a visit to the dealer every week in the summer to meet those requirements.

Originally Posted by Zed Ed

I'd be as bold as to say that this car isn't really for track gods anyway; too fat, too many electronic aids, too many wheels being driven.

But thats how Nissan have advertised it, with all the press being about 'ring laptimes. Thats like advertising a Hoover as being the best at cleaning up carpets thats ever been invented, but then telling owners that if they do actually clean a carpet with it they need to take it to their dealer for a pre and post-carpet inspection.

[Aerodramatics]

Originally Posted by Guy

Not true at all. I expect the car to eat tyres and brakes if tracked and have no problem with that.

But thats how Nissan have advertised it, with all the press being about 'ring laptimes. Thats like advertising a Hoover as being the best at cleaning up carpets thats ever been invented, but then telling owners that if they do actually clean a carpet with it they need to take it to their dealer for a pre and post-carpet inspection.

Precisely. Quality analogy too!

[Kislik]

Hey guys, i owned M3 E46 for 2 years before i got my GTR (now 2k miles on it) and i changed the engine oil every 3k miles just to be sure. I tracked the car maybe 10 times a year. I only changed oils, brake pads, tires, and brake rotors (once), and of course inspections as said in manual.

For me the difference is in changing the tranny oil which is VERY expensive and probably brakes more offen because of the weight of the car. The brakes are also expensive 300 USD for Ferodo DS2500 M3 and 800 the same pad for GTR.

brake rotors 200 USD per piece M3, 800 per piece for GTR (but they should last long when they don´t crack)

my biggest concern is th tranny, I´m really scared to drive it HARD. I made some snow drivings (check the video YouTube - GTR Snow driving Most) with VDC off of course.

With the M3 i didn´t ever thought about not to drive it hard, i did it all the time, now i´m scared all the time when push it... this is what makes me think to sell the GTR for maybe used GT3, or R8, or comming Cayman S clubsport

[Aerodramatics]

Originally Posted by sjc

Aero. I've already said previously that you talk too much sense, but are you definately sure that at the urinal Simon C and the management bod weren't just sh!tting themselves?

Definitely. LOL. Although it was the five minutes before the Seven p.m. main gathering of all the customers, wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends and children, where Davros delivered his "welcome and congratulations on what the futures holds for you all" speech. Starting with a 07:29 video wall projection of the infamous lap accompanied by racy music !

Nonetheless, the fella did go on to further express his opinion about the wives, girlfriends and children of those gathered and his desire to get the event over with a.s.a.p. so he could get away from us.

Charming. Still, it was a private conversation, which they both appeared to be somewhat embarassed to realise that I'd been inadvertently present during his full tirade. When I flushed the toiled and stepped out of the cubical and proceeded to wash and dry my hands, the room fell into complete silence. Nonetheless, I was pretty disgusted with what I'd heard. Charitably, you could put it down to blokey banter, uncharitably you could take it for what it was. Extremely offensive and insulting.

[Fuggles]

There seems to be a small group of people who feel this is a major issue to have your car cared for in a professional manner. I personally find that rather strange to think that you care little about the car or, potentially, yourself and your passenger on a track day. I can’t speak for the R35 as I have never driven one on track but I can speak as a keen amateur track day enthusiast.

Before every track day I make sure everything is fine with my car; I do this the day before at least and often have an oil change just to be sure. Pads, tyres and all manner of other bits are checked and this is done again at the track day. In fact, as with every other person I have met through the GTROC this is an ongoing part of making sure you and the car remain not only safe but also in the best performing position possible. It’s called Preventative Maintenance. Now for an R33 GT-R like mine it’s not that difficult to tell if the turbines are fine (you can hear if they are starting to grind a little). It’s also easy to tell how many miles are left on the triple-plate (‘traditional’) clutch. And so it goes for just about everything else.

In the same way that an R32-R34 car is easy to prep for a track day so too is your average (and even top of the range) Porsche. Okay it may be a great car to drive but fundamentally in terms of engineering design it’s the same as an old GT-R, the turbines are easy to hear, the clutch is easy to sense and so forth. Okay it may have variable turbine geometry but it’s right up there with the RB26DETT dinosaurs! The new GT-R on the other hand has turbines hidden away that you can’t really hear and the gearbox is so complex that there is no way you can tell if the clutches are fine. Add to that the fact the ATTESSA is no longer a mechanical diff device and it becomes something altogether more complex.

In effect those people saying they don’t want the car inspected before and after are saying they would take a car out on track without properly checking its track-worthiness! On track days novices traditionally have a black “X” on a yellow background to help other drivers. Can I ask that those people who don’t want to maintain their car properly before going on track have a black “X” on a red background displayed? That way I know to avoid getting in your car!

Going back to my car yes it has had a rough time. It also has a complete engine rebuild every two years due to the abuse it gets! The car is set up to rev to 9,500 rpm and runs 2 bar of boost so it is always going to be fragile. That’s my choice to run it like that and I know the consequences. I could run less boost or rev lower but I choose not to. However I do always have it fully inspected before and at every track day and have a full service immediately after. So if that’s the care an attention given to a dinosaur, what about something that is altogether more complex? Surely that deserves the same level of care and respect? Okay so my car did ‘blow up’ a while ago but that was because I knew it was leaking oil but still ran it at full throttle anyway!.... at the Nurburgring, at Spa and at Brunters before it let go. Anyone want to see my repair bill?

I’ve gone through some old stats and information sent to me some time ago by Nissan which might perhaps put some of this into context. I think about 500 people attended the Race Academy events at Silverstone organised by Nissan (I can’t find the exact number) but of those 265 had never done a track day before and just less than 100 had only ever done one track day! So, about 28% of people there actually understood what it is to run a car as an efficient track weapon; or 72% of you don’t actually know what you’re talking about! Sorry to be so blunt but these are ‘your’ figures not mine.

Oh, and while we are on the subject of the Race Academy events I remember being told those cars did over 1000 miles on track every week. That’s pretty impressive by anyone’s imagination! I have no idea how many track miles I have done but I am impressed even you’re not! And from feedback the cars were as good at the end as they were at the start – well they’d have to be otherwise people would be cancelling their orders! For a car that weighs 1.8 tonnes they take a lot of stopping and I would imagine oil and other fluids get pretty hot so maintenance is a sensible and vital thing when maintaining them surely.

Here’s another thought. If 72% of people have never been on track before those 1000 miles actually become 1000 very poorly driven miles! How many people of the 500 or so have never used paddle shift gears? How many have never used twin clutch quick shift gears? Rhetorical questions all but imagine telling someone who have never been on track before, never used a paddle shift before, never used this kind of gearbox before (anyone driven Veyron lately: apart from Guy! ). Now imagine trying to teach them the racing line, looking for clipping points, keeping out of the way of other cars and teaching them about cadence braking and getting the power down smoothly but fast and at the right time. Heck I personally am surprised those cars aren’t completely shagged to be honest!

The GT-R is a unique car in many ways. Track days are dangerous places and it is often said the most dangerous bit is the ‘nut behind the wheel’. If you think that nut is now in charge of maintaining a complex car then perhaps it’s not for you? I would love to own a Nissan GT-R, sadly I can’t afford one so am stuck with my R33 GT-R dinosaur. However that dinosaur has done over 150,000 miles and much of it on track and on the drag strip. If ever I did get an R35 GT-R it would be maintained properly for use on track like every other car. The fact it is far more complex means that care and maintenance comes with a price. Sadly advances in technology often means that.

Hopefully this has made some sense of all the comments being made about this and will perhaps bring some rational thought to the debate. I will take this to Nissan on your behalf but suspect much of what I have said they already agree with. However I suspect there will always be those that think all you need to do is turn up, take the Tesco’s carriers out of the boot (especially the ice cream!), hurtle around the circuit for a day and then go home, shopping intact. If that’s the case go buy a dinosaur!

[tokyogtr]

well said fuggles. track days are not a god given right. they are to be respected, as is the car and your fellow drivers. most importantly the car though, cos if you stand on the brakes at the end of the straight and they fail... see you in the hospital or heaven. and i've witnessed a brake failure causing a car to smash into another car and the poor unsuspecting other car owner ending up with a broken neck thru no fault of his own.

[CJay]

An interesting read and I am one of those who had never driven on a track before going to Germany and the Race Academy I had driven a flappy paddle car before though a very Nice DB9

I will never take my GTR on the Track (Well at least I dont think I will) Im stretching myself to own this great car and cant see me affording Track days and all that goes with it. Bothered .... No envious of those that do ... yes a tad

I will however have my GTR serviced to the same high standard has Im going to be cleaning and pampering her

CJ

[Philip]

The technology argument is a dead end, as is suggesting that you are somehow irresponsible if you don't trek to an HPC twice every time you visit a track. The fact remains that I can buy a 911, track it every weekend and only have to visit the dealer for routine servicing.

As for the Academy cars, I was told (by someone who works at Silverstone) that some had suffered transmission failures. I suspect there was a reason why 350Zs were substituted for GT-Rs in the timed lap event.

Philip

[Zed Ed]

clearly then, any comparisons of the GTR to a hoover cleaner are without merit

the same goes for track days and carpet cleaning

[Guy]

John,

I agree about doing inspections etc, but there is a huge difference between:

1. The owner choosing to do a pre-trackday visual inspection of the car, which takes 20 mins to check tyres, oil, water and brake pad levels at home.

2. Being told that the car has to go anywhere between 1-2 hours away to the HPC to be checked before and after, at obviously large expense to keep the warranty intact. Would you be willing to take perhaps 1-2 days off work for every track-day to take the car to/back from the dealer to meet such an obligation?

As Philip said, the issue is that no other manufacturer requires such measures and it shows just how fragile Nissan consider the GTR to be.

Guy

[Fuggles]

I agree that making a detour to get the car inspected is not ideal but I stand by my points on safety for the driver, passenger and other track day users. That said I will pursue this when Nissan are able to discuss and see what their views are on what can be done. At the very least I'm glad to see people now taking a sensible approach to this debate.

[Aerodramatics]

I don't think anyone will argue against good track day prep. habits. Checking all fluids, mechanicals, especially the braking system before the day and between sessions can only be a good habit.

The offer of pre- and post-track inspections by HPCs is a service to be welcomed, the mandating of such inspections, I'm not so sure.

I can see the benefits, namely if the oil pressure is to low, or a disc is too worn and would overheats and cracks, then having paid for the inspections, this is clocked and prevented from occuring. A good thing. Same goes for being able to run the diagnostics and check for faults before the day.

John, you are right to insist on high maintenance standards for cars taking part in track day events be it club organised, or BaT or whatever.

It just niggles that HPC inspections are to be mandated. I'm just too cynical by half nowadays. I was seeing it as a potential way to try to fleece cash from cutomers while voiding customers warranty ad hoc using any old data from the datalogger to argue "abuse" in the event of a costly mechanical failure. I suppose I should be more trusting. At the mo' I trust my HPC's integrity, but I am less sure about corporate Nissan. The HPC can only follow the policy that corporate Nissan issue, or else face being out of pocket themselves. Which isn't tenable other than the occassional low-cost goodwill item.

To be honest, other than diagnostics, owners can (and the owners manual requires us to) maintain the vehicle between service intervals and to make sure all fluids and consumables are within spec.

I can and have checked, pads, discs, fluids, tyre wear and pressures + exhaust system before each and every track event I've ever participated in. Give us some credit.

Agreed. Shopping bags out, straight onto track, and shopping bags in is no way to go about it. Note: I've Zed at the mo'. Self-maintenance and track-prep and switching the ESP out didn't invalidate the warranty when allied to full dealer service history and schedule.

But, ok. If the GT-R really is so fragile and high-strung, then clearly we ought to seriously consider Nissan's inspection proposition. Chances are if the logistics fitted in and the inspection was good value, I'd participate in the inspections through my own free will. However, should the inspection schedule not fit in, as long we've maintained the car correctly and had it serviced at the correct intervals, then there should not be a warranty issue for Nissan and Nissan should be ok with this.
The reduction of a full service schedule from 6000 to 1500 miles is an unusual and potentially an extremely costly issue of course.

If you could get a good illustrated answer to the logistics of John's (WorEod's) questions at the start of the the thread that'd be all that's needed.

Durability and fitness-for-purpose wise, I await the answer to question 41) on the uprated for Europe thread with interest. I wouild hope Nissan don't feel it necessary to sidestep this question but rather are happy and prepared to answer it in full. As a paying customer, I feel it's a fair question.

Apologies, if all this is driving you up the wall. I appreciate, you can't always get answers and don't really wish to ask ones you yourself see no merit in.

At the end of the day, we shall buy our cars and see how Nissan handles matters along the line. Hopefully it'll be a very positive experience for enthusiasts owners and Nissan alike.

[WoREoD]

After discussion with my HPC I understand the VDC Off - Warranty Off situation occurs when you press the switch. Ignoring the warranty off situation for the moment plus the need to do a post-event inspection to get the warranty on again, and, agreeing with John about checking my vehicle before tracking it, I'm not sure I understand the pre-trackday HPC inspection requirement (or is it just a recommendation?)....

[turbobungle]

Fuggles, if your motor is running 2 bar and 9500rpm or well over twice the standard boost and 1500 extra revs than Nissan gave it, I wouldn't mind betting its in the region of 600-700bhp or 200-300% more than standard! Therefore the engine is being stretched and should require extra maintenance. If some one ran their R35 twice the boost and power I would also expect more maintenance. But the fact remains that the GTR has been sold to us on its Porsche 911 Turbo/GT3 bashing abilities at half the cost complete with its standard Nissan 3 year warranty. At no point was it said that the car would require maintenance far in excess of said Porkers to be able to do it. We all accept you should check over your car before using it on track, but this should be no more than you would do in any other car.

As for not being able to afford a GTR, I bet your R33 has cost you more than £55k (I know my Supra's not far off that) and I bet my monthly outgoings for the GTR (if I go ahead) will be less than yours on the R33 if you really do do all that maintenance and engine rebuilds etc.!! Unless of course you do it yourself??

[Fuggles]

The cost of the car was more but then I bought it twelve years ago! Rebuilds aside the maintenance isn't that much as I do much of it myself, just the big jobs done by the tuners