why garrett ballbearing turbos are best?

[godzirra]

been talking to a mate of a mate whos a turbo expert...works for a big turbo company...

i thought old journalbearing are more reliable, he told me naaa mate... ball bearing turbos garrretts) only fail if these things happen......
extreme heat soak back (water lines must be run)
engine failure leading to no oil supply
foreign object / particles impacting the turbine or compressor wheels

anyone can back him up? think i belive the bloke

ta mates.... u problaly know i aint sharpest tool...lol

[Lith]

Imho he is right, those aren't the ONLY reason for failure but they are a lot more tolerant than journal bearing turbos as far as I know. The big advantage to journal bearing turbos in industrial use is that they are really cheap to rebuild, bearing kits etc can be got for bugger all. With BB turbos the core is a large cost of the overall turbo

[blue34]

What he says is true but If the bearings overheat and fail they can drop nice little ballbearings and bits of bearing cage material down the oil drain into the sump..

[Chris Wilson]

Originally Posted by blue34

What he says is true but If the bearings overheat and fail they can drop nice little ballbearings and bits of bearing cage material down the oil drain into the sump..

Run a gauze filter element in the drain?

Be aware some Garrett turbos do not have Ni-Resist (trade mark name) high nickel content cast iron turbine housings. If you run these on a serious engine with high egts for sustained periods the inside of the turbine housing flakes and the particles erode the turbine blade tips. IMHO you MUST KNOW that turbine housings are high nickel iron, not plain old grey iron as many low end and pretty much all diesel turbine housings are. Garrett list those WITH these housings on their official web sites. For example, this one:

TurboByGarrett.com - Catalog

If the outside of the turbine housing is slaking off materiel if you hit it with a screwdriver tip, you know what's happening on the inside. There are loads of 4088 turbos that do this in use on performance engines. There are also loads of fake Garretts out of China and Taiwan. I only buy from an affiliated Garrett dealer, and from the UK, so warranty claims should be painless. You can also ensure they have access to rebuild parts by asking in writing before buying a turbo. Try getting some HKS ones rebuilt, or HKS gearbox parts, or HKS damper spares...... My tip is always ring a company you are buying from wanting a mythical spare part for whatever you are thinking of buying. There wouldn't be a rook of broken Trust (Quaife) gearboxes about, a raft of leaking and knocking HKS dampers, or HKS dog boxes awaiting bits for months from Japan, if people took this simple step. I have 2 cars here now that have left their owners open to huge bills due to no spares availability for expensive after market units.

[EndlessR]

I have been told that journal bearing is far more robust than ballbeaing.
Thas the reason most industrial machines / engines where high pressures / high friction load on the shaft due to constant changes in start/stop for long durations (like bus, ambulance, Military etc etc are Journal bearing based turbos)

Ballbearing does not guarantee a faster spooling, many other variable are at stake, such as Engine demand, A/R, Turbine wheel blades/ Ported schroud etc etc

Could be another interesting thread

[infamous_t]

Originally Posted by EndlessR

Ballbearing does not guarantee a faster spooling, many other variable are at stake, such as Engine demand, A/R, Turbine wheel blades/ Ported schroud etc etc

All other things equal, a ball bearing unit will have less resistance which would result in increase spool response.

Also remember early N1 turbos were journal/bush bearing, where as later N1s were ball bearing... remembering N1s were for competitve use, were reliability is king.
Infact, this change seems to apply to most OEM turbos.

[EndlessR]

Originally Posted by infamous_t

All other things equal, a ball bearing unit will have less resistance which would result in increase spool response.

Also remember early N1 turbos were journal/bush bearing, where as later N1s were ball bearing... remembering N1s were for competitve use, were reliability is king.
Infact, this change seems to apply to most OEM turbos.

100% agree...They do offer less resistance, all things being equal that is.
I think if a customer is upgrading his journal bearing turbos to ballbeaing design, then the increase will be noticed as everything is equal. Its a good advancement on production engines that remain unchanged from factory spec.

Tuned engines are far from identical, so my point was ballbearing isnt always best, and shouldnt be chosen just because a friend or someone recommends it over journal bearing turbos, as tuned engines are different, demand will be different, and turbocharger design varies between makers.

[godzirra]

cheers Chris, damn good info u said thre that bloke sez the same as you did... he says the -10s are rite up there for tuning...he reckons their no.1

endler...i thot dat as well but the bloke sez lots of lorry turbos get shaftplay and then its a goner but they dont complain much coz its cheap and easy to fix...he sez the new bb turbos are just so much better that they spool better and last longer

[Chris Wilson]

Originally Posted by godzirra

cheers Chris, damn good info u said thre that bloke sez the same as you did... he says the -10s are rite up there for tuning...he reckons their no.1

endler...i thot dat as well but the bloke sez lots of lorry turbos get shaftplay and then its a goner but they dont complain much coz its cheap and easy to fix...he sez the new bb turbos are just so much better that they spool better and last longer

I only used that Garrett part number to show how they indicate which models have the Ni-Resist housings, it wasn't meant as a recommendation as to suitability air flow wise for any specific application.

[godzirra]

Originally Posted by Chris Wilson

I only used that Garrett part number to show how they indicate which models have the Ni-Resist housings, it wasn't meant as a recommendation as to suitability air flow wise for any specific application.

oh sorry mate...my bad...i aint too sharp lol

awesome build u got tho...what turbos are you planning to use?

[Chris Wilson]

My RB26 engine is on the -10 turbos, but it's a track only engine and low end power isn't a priority. I may regret the choice, but I have to start somewhere Thanks

[GT-R Glenn]

Plain bearing turbo's are a LOT more likely to fail from being turned off before they have spooled down.
Another reason for going to bb cartridge.
Plain bearing turbo's actually have less resistance than bb when running at working speeds.
Its not really fair to compare 1990's turbo technology / metalurgy with 2010 turbo's.
The grp A touring car turbo's were pretty good in the reliablility area.
But plain bearing turbo's are a lot more prone to failure from dirty oil, premature oil feed stoppage etc:
Out right power produced is not really a factor from the core type.

[EndlessR]

Originally Posted by godzirra

cheers Chris, damn good info u said thre that bloke sez the same as you did... he says the -10s are rite up there for tuning...he reckons their no.1

endler...i thot dat as well but the bloke sez lots of lorry turbos get shaftplay and then its a goner but they dont complain much coz its cheap and easy to fix...he sez the new bb turbos are just so much better that they spool better and last longer

If it was the best option, then all lorries and industrial applications would use ballbearing......they don`t because the current ballbearing technology doesnt offer relilability when high PR are required. Its the reason why Holset and Mitsubishi are still Journal bearing. Holset is working on a ballbearing design, as it says there are benifits there, but they need a design that will withstand the day to day abuse of the hard working engines their turbos go on. There design is a total rethink of the ballbearing system, but will offer greater relilability. MHI are working on a very impressive new design, not ballbearing and not on small turbos yet, but a motor that is controlled by ECU and is attached to the compressor wheel shaft tip, electronically spooling the turbo to match engine demand. That is very exciting.....as they are almost working on a method that has no lag, and due to the location of the motor (not near the exhaust side, its a technology that would be used on petrol cars where high EGT are stopping other technologies from diesel engines crossing over.

[godzirra]

i rekon a gtx type -5 would rox! spool like -5 but make -10 power

[godzirra]

just noticed the 2860s all run cast 'inconel' turbine wheels...is dat a good thing?