KPGC10 - How much are they ?

[mattysupra]

OMG!

[Cris]

As a member of the uninformed perhaps someone could give me an idea why these cars are revered in Japan so much?

To my uneducated eye the car doesn't seem that exceptional. I think of the BNR32's release and it was clearly offering performance and technology only available to top end supercars (959, F40). Did the K/PGC have exceptional race results? Or is it more to do with it being the first GTR and having very limited numbers?

Is the later C110 as popular?

NB If the above sounds negative it certainly isn't supposed to! Just looking to understand a bit of history.

[Babalouie]

Originally Posted by Cris

As a member of the uninformed perhaps someone could give me an idea why these cars are revered in Japan so much?

To my uneducated eye the car doesn't seem that exceptional. I think of the BNR32's release and it was clearly offering performance and technology only available to top end supercars (959, F40). Did the K/PGC have exceptional race results? Or is it more to do with it being the first GTR and having very limited numbers?

Well on the racing front, the answers you seek are here:
Japanese Nostalgic Car – Blog » Blog Archive » The Skyline Supremacy: C10 GT-R Hakosuka

If you think of what was available in the late 60s/early 70s, the only JDM supercars were the Hako GTR and the Toyota 2000GT. Only 2200 GTRs were made, and only 300 Toyota GTs were made. That's it...2 models. And in 1973, the oil shock hit and there were no more JDM supercars for decades, until the late 80s.

So for all the classic car nuts in Japan, there are really only say, 1000 surviving classic JDM supercars to fight over. That's a tiny number compared to say how many US muscle cars that were made, or Astons or 911s or Ferraris.

It's really hard to put yourself in that era of Japan. I mean today, if you want a JDM supercar, there's RX7s, Supras, GTRs, NSXs, and going a bit further afield, lots of hot Scoobies and Lancer Evos. Add them all together, and you have maybe few hundred thousand individual cars to you can buy (new or old).

But back then, there was only 2000ish JDM supercars made, and that was it. For decades.

Imagine if, in 1989, Nissan only made 2000 R32 GTRs, and then stopped. And there was no such thing as an NSX, Supra or FD etc. And in the 90s there were no 280ps cars at all, and only JDM economy cars on sale. What would an R32 GTR be worth today if that was the case? Bloody heaps, mate

And as for performance, the Hako GTR does the qtr mile in 16 flat, which is nothing exceptional today. But that would have been pretty level with what a 2L 911 or a Ferrari Dino would have done. And the Hako was a sedan....in the late 60s there was really no such thing as a sports sedan. And back in those days, Japan was still a recovering economy, and most ppl drove little kei-type cars (if they had a car at all). So a locally-made supercar (by the performance standards of the day) would have made more of a splash in those days, than the R32 GTR did in 1989.

So its position in japanese car culture is quite unique.

Originally Posted by Cris

Is the later C110 as popular?

Sort of.

When the oil shock hit in 1973, Japan, like now, responded by going all "green" (yuck) and so Nissan pulled the pin on the C110 GTR after only 200 were made. The touring car class that the Hako raced in was canned, and so the C110 GTR didn't have an opportunity to strut its stuff. In fact Skylines wouldn't have a sedan-based production car class to race in until Group A in the early 80s, so it was going to be a long time between drinks....

But...the C110 GTR is very desireable because it was the last of the breed, and because it's super rare. So a C110 GTR is worth no less than a Hako GTR in the same condition (maybe worth a bit more actually...). And so a C110 GT-R clone is also worth quite a lot too, about the same as a Hako GTR clone in the same condition.

Where it deviates a little, is that there was no C110 GTR sedan (all the GTRs were coupes in that shape). So a hotted-up C110 sedan is just a hotted up old sedan, and doesn't have the "GTR clone" appeal, and so they tend to worth less than say a Hako sedan done up in GTR regalia.

[Cris]

Cheers! That helps.

I guess my problem is/was I was thinking that the car was along the same lines as a Lotus Cortina et al. But I guess that the market for a four cylinder sporty car like an S600/800 is very different to a 6+ cylinder car.

As you say it really must be seen as the initiator of the new breed. I've heard how much 2000GTs go for (and they are stunning cars) so I can see where you're coming from.

Thanks again. Got to say this has made me have a quick google of Datsun 120Ys and SR20s...

[Babalouie]

Originally Posted by Cris

Cheers! That helps.

I guess my problem is/was I was thinking that the car was along the same lines as a Lotus Cortina et al. But I guess that the market for a four cylinder sporty car like an S600/800 is very different to a 6+ cylinder car.

Yeah I'd say that's fair....the Lotus Fords were made in much larger numbers, and were not as technologically advanced as the Hako GTR. The KPGC10 had 4valves per cylinder (I don't think any other cars, including the italian supercars had that in those days), twin cams, CDI electronic ignition, 5 speeds, lsd...I mean you'd have to try real hard to think of another car (in any market) with the same features in its time.

[PS30-SB]

Originally Posted by Cris

To my uneducated eye the car doesn't seem that exceptional. I think of the BNR32's release and it was clearly offering performance and technology only available to top end supercars (959, F40). Did the K/PGC have exceptional race results? Or is it more to do with it being the first GTR and having very limited numbers?

Cris,
Yes, the PGC10 and KPGC10 did have an exceptional run of success in Japanese touring car racing from 1969 to 1973. They dominated their class with little or no answer from their competitors, racking up an unprecedented 46 consecutive wins ( they were on course for 47 until a bad race with crashes and mech. failures ) and finally ended up with 52 wins. It was only when the works team had pretty much given up on further development that Mazda's works team caught up with them.

Nissan made much of this success in their sales promotion and advertising for the whole C10 Skyline range. The GT-R models gave a trickle-down of glamour to the GT and GT-X models that the average guy could afford. The GT-R models were relatively rare and expensive, and I guess a lot of guys who couldn't afford one at the time are now scratching the itch. I know quite a lot of early GT-R owners who are in the 50+ age bracket.

As for the car not being all that exceptional, I'd argue the opposite. You only have to compare them to other 'hot' saloons / homologation specials of the same period to see that they actually were quite exotic in specification; A 24-valve twin-cam straight six ( with DNA from the Porsche-beating GR8 engine ) with triple side-draught carbs, hand-built stainless six-branch ex. manifold and electronic ignition was quite a fancy piece of equipment for any car in 1969, let alone a boxy Japanese saloon car. The chassis was relatively sophisticated too. Semi-trailing arms on the rear were the kind of thing you might expect to see on an expensive German or Italian saloon of the period, and the whole package was really quite impressive.

I think they compare well with the likes of a BMW CSL, Lotus Cortina or Mk.I Escort RS1600 ( and look at the prices they are fetching now ) and for the Japanese it's a bit of an automotive icon. They are being seen as relatively good investments too.

I think the prices of GT and GT-X models ( and I'm incuding the four-doors in this too ) are being dragged up by the image of the GT-R models - hence all the GT-R 'lookalikes' - but they are good cars on their own merit. The SOHC L6 engine is a great engine, with an immense amount of history of its own and a host of tuning equipment and know-how available for it. The L20A/L24/L26/L28 engines share many parts, and are easy to work on. You can make an L-series engined C10 very fast indeed.

C110-series GT-Rs are the rarest of the early GT-R models, with just shy of 200 built. They were never raced by the works team in-period so they don't have any race history to speak of. However, because of their rarity they quite often beat C10-series GT-Rs in the prices they achieve.

Of course, the prices we see now are really just a Japan-only phenomenon. With the C10-series hardly having been exported at all in period, there are only a few outside Japan and most of those are recent arrivals. Therefore it's very hard to judge what they would change hands for on the open market outside Japan. If I was in a position where I needed to sell my KPGC10, it seems likely that the best thing to do would be to sell it back to Japan. I can't imagine anyone over here would pay anything like what it should fetch in Japan, as there just isn't any in-depth knowledge or appreciation of the model over here.

[PS30-SB]

Babalouie / Kev,
You beat me to it.....

[Babalouie]

Hehe...

[PS30-SB]

Agree with everything you wrote, except you didn't mention the 'PS30' Fairlady Z432 model.

Also fitted with the GT-R's S20 twin cam ( Nissan described the 432 as "a Z with the heart of a GT-R" ) and with less than 500 made, they are fetching huge prices today.

Even rarer, the super-lightweight 'PS30-SB' Fairlady Z432-R model: A completely different bodyshell construction ( steel panels a gauge lighter than the standard 432 ), lightweight FRP panels, plexiglass windows, lightweight FRP buckets seats, and a whole host of 'delete' options. In all respects you could compare it to the likes of a Porsche 911R. Less than 25 made, and now fetching stratospheric prices for a Z. Much more than any C10 or C110-series GT-R, but almost never on the open market. One of my dream cars......

[Babalouie]

Ah yes, the z432, I'd love one of those.

[Perra]

I got the books and BOY is there a lot of versions of these cars... If anyone is REALLY interested in the differences I´d recommend the book on the right:




BTW, some good info in this thread now! Keep it up, guys!

/P

[Mick-skyline]

Originally Posted by Perra

BTW, some good info in this thread now! Keep it up, guys!

/P

completely agree, maybe its time a mod came in a deleted all the crap thats useless in here now

[Moff]

Originally Posted by Mick-skyline

completely agree, maybe its time a mod came in a deleted all the crap thats useless in here now

Good idea

I don't think I have ever started such a popular thread

[PS30-SB]

Originally Posted by Perra

If anyone is REALLY interested in the differences I´d recommend the book on the right:

That's the book I recommended at the beginning of the thread....

[xanavi1]

not exactly what your probably looking for but one on PistonHeads
Nissan : KGC110 72 Nissan Skyline GT

$15,000
USA