Upgrading suspension on pre 2009/10

[Adamantium]

Hi all,

I will be upgrading to the litchfield suspension system when it is officially on sale, but was wondering if others consider the standard suspension to be in need of imprivement.

I have two 2010 cars, both 59 plates, but did find the suspension to be acceptable. That may have been due to my young spine. I know of several US owners who sold the car due to not considering it suitable for everyday use.

I have never been out in a 2009 car, so couldn't comment on that but I did notice a marked improvement when swtiching from 2010 to 2011.

In my previous subaru days, £1000 for replacement suspension seemed a lot, and that was for LEDA suspension, which was poor at best. Since then it seems that aftermarket suspension can do wonderful things, but the price seems to have climbed and climbed. My Exe-tc suspenion on two of my evo 9s was approachign £2000, but it was leagues better than stock.

The GTR is a different ballgame due to the built in electronic adjustment, but I still wonder what other owners think of the stock suspension, and how many would be prepared to spend in order to improve it.

Part of me thinks that the team who built the car understood it better than anyone else, and to try to improve it is sacrilege. In an area as fundamental as suspension, I am even more concerned, espcially with all that ring testing. That said, look how poor the stock brakes are.

[Arcam]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

Hi all,

I will be upgrading to the litchfield suspension system when it is officially on sale, but was wondering if others consider the standard suspension to be in need of imprivement.

I have two 2010 cars, both 59 plates, but did find the suspension to be acceptable. That may have been due to my young spine. I know of several US owners who sold the car due to not considering it suitable for everyday use.

I have never been out in a 2009 car, so couldn't comment on that but I did notice a marked improvement when swtiching from 2010 to 2011.

In my previous subaru days, £1000 for replacement suspension seemed a lot, and that was for LEDA suspension, which was poor at best. Since then it seems that aftermarket suspension can do wonderful things, but the price seems to have climbed and climbed. My Exe-tc suspenion on two of my evo 9s was approachign £2000, but it was leagues better than stock.

The GTR is a different ballgame due to the built in electronic adjustment, but I still wonder what other owners think of the stock suspension, and how many would be prepared to spend in order to improve it.

Part of me thinks that the team who built the car understood it better than anyone else, and to try to improve it is sacrilege. In an area as fundamental as suspension, I am even more concerned, espcially with all that ring testing. That said, look how poor the stock brakes are.

I believe there is room for improvement on the stock GT-R suspension particularly on pre MY2011 cars, I know that Iain has spent a lot of time over this product and I would imagine it will be well worth the wait and upgrade

Your comment re stock brake are spot on with that item being the most important step in upgrading the car ... over and above any other work if you track the vehicle.

[Blade]

I think a point to note is what gets designed and built are two different things.

There is a budget to all cars, so things get scaled down and cheapened.

Suspension and brakes are often two victims. Also, suspension is often designed to do multiple jobs to please multiple people, and may not suit you as an individual. Alot of after market setups allow a level of individualisation.

For example, I used Intrax kits on the BMWs and even drove to Holland to have a bespoke kit made for my car to suit me as an individual.

As far as the GTR stands as stock (and I can only comment on MY11) I think it is surprisingly good. I've not tried it on track, but it is more than comfortable enough on the road, more comfortable than the E92 M3 and even my memory of my E60 M5.

That's impressive.

I am sure there is room to improve on the limit, or for track use - but until I hit those limits, then I won't feel the need to change.

Now there is ONE issue that would cause me to change, which is the tyres. The suspension will have been tuned to the extra stiffness of the runflats. Having changed runflats to non before, you have to change the suspension setup to match. No other tyre has a similar sidewall stiffness (other than a slick) - not even a cup tyre.

So, if you wanted the advantages of the Michelin Pilot Super Sport for example, I would be fairly sure you would better off with an aftermarket setup.

Isn't Litchfields suspension made by the same people who make the stock one? They will have been as well placed as Nissan (better perhaps) to judge the characteristics and how they can be improved for a given tyre or purpose.

I'm inclined to reserve judgement on the Litchfield suspension upgrade. I don't personally feel I need it (yet), but if I did I would investigate it, and I would also be confident that it was well conceived given what I know of Iain and his approach.

The really good suspension setups come from good development. Even a good manufacturer can create garbage.

Take for example Ohlins on an Evo 6 were awesome because of all the Rally cars using them and the feedback they got.

Take KWs on an E46 M3 - pretty good, but on an E92 M3 - a disaster! That was because they had alot of E46s using them for race and road, but hardly any on the E92.

Motons on the E92 were very good because most of the race cars used Motons on E92!

In theory, a good chassis engineer with a chassis dyno can make ANY car handle better if they are working to a brief and are any good at their job

Henk Thuis at Intrax for example is amazing (even if you haven't heard of him, his suspension sits in all Radicals, Ascaris and he even did Benetton F1 cars).

He can take any car's stock suspension out, having driven it and asked you what you want to achieve and then create a suspension kit infront of you, same day usually, that will work after a couple of iterations. Those iterations can include total strip and rebuild! Amazing stuff. The electronic nature of current suspensions (like the GTR and E92) make it more difficult to get improved options.

Certainly if you are changing the suspension it is an all-or-nothing thing. You change struts, springs, roll bars etc - all to match, and with a tyre in mind. You don't stick progressive Eibachs on with stiffer roll bars to try to soften your daily and still have some roll stiffness. That isn't proper suspension science (sorry Eibach) but for alot of people it might solve their problem (e.g. daily use) and they will never see the downside in their use of the car.

Litchfield's setup is the strongest candidate I've seen so far, but I just don't know if its needed.

[Adamantium]

Excellent points all round.

Blade, I hadn't considered the impact of tuning to the run flats, but you mention it will be necessary to extract the advantages of the super sports.

Do you believe that the ultimate capability of the car with these tyres will be higher than before if set up correctly? All I knw of them is that they are supposed to be an all round step forward from the PS2 and a very capable all season tyre, but the Dunlops are very much a road going track tyre for summer use.

In ultimate optimised set up, is the pss going to compete? Who knows.

My reason for trusting Iain on his suspension is mostly just on his recommendation alone. He wouldn't sell anything he didn't rate and never pushes anything on to anyone. I have listened to feedback from him for some time and heard about what and who has gone into the development and trust him enough that when he says they are a marked improvement in all departments that they are going to be something special.

I will of course try before I buy. When the 12 plate (have to come up with nomenclature for all these GTRs) is run in, I'll be visiting for some stage upgrades, and will drive the demo car with them on. Think it has the pss on too though!

[Arcam]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

Excellent points all round.
I will of course try before I buy. When the 12 plate (have to come up with nomenclature for all these GTRs) is run in, I'll be visiting for some stage upgrades, and will drive the demo car with them on. Think it has the pss on too though!

Bear in mind that the MY12 suspension setup is quite different to earlier cars in as much as the RHD versions have asymmetrical spring and damper rates along with alignment settings so any after market system will be replacing an already well sorted system that is tuned to work with the Dunlop Maxx tyres.

[Adamantium]

MY12?

My new car is an NY11. I wasn't aware if the changes to my12.

[Arcam]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

MY12?

My new car is an NY11. I wasn't aware if the changes to my12.

Sorry, with you saying a 12 plate I read MY12 in my head DOH!

One of the biggest changes in the MY12 model is the new suspesion setup along with more power of course

[Blade]

Originally Posted by Arcam

Bear in mind that the MY12 suspension setup is quite different to earlier cars in as much as the RHD versions have asymmetrical spring and damper rates along with alignment settings so any after market system will be replacing an already well sorted system that is tuned to work with the Dunlop Maxx tyres.

The asymmetrical springs can't be much different in practice. It is similar in concept to corner weighting a race car for a given driver weight. Problem is, stick a passenger in or have a driver of a different weight and the setup is wrong again. There is no way the MY12 setup can be a great improvement unless you happen to exactly fit the driver size they set the springs up for, and even then you will struggle to detect the difference in normal use, but on a race track like Silverstone, you might.

I believe they also revalved the dampers on the MY12, and may have changed other things like the rollbars and general spring rates. That would be much more detectable.

[Blade]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

Excellent points all round.

Blade, I hadn't considered the impact of tuning to the run flats, but you mention it will be necessary to extract the advantages of the super sports.

Do you believe that the ultimate capability of the car with these tyres will be higher than before if set up correctly? All I knw of them is that they are supposed to be an all round step forward from the PS2 and a very capable all season tyre, but the Dunlops are very much a road going track tyre for summer use.

In ultimate optimised set up, is the pss going to compete? Who knows.

My reason for trusting Iain on his suspension is mostly just on his recommendation alone. He wouldn't sell anything he didn't rate and never pushes anything on to anyone. I have listened to feedback from him for some time and heard about what and who has gone into the development and trust him enough that when he says they are a marked improvement in all departments that they are going to be something special.

I will of course try before I buy. When the 12 plate (have to come up with nomenclature for all these GTRs) is run in, I'll be visiting for some stage upgrades, and will drive the demo car with them on. Think it has the pss on too though!

Only trying it will tell. Everyone is different. I agree about Iains feedback, but you will know yourself.

Personally, on heavy cars I feel the best thing you can do is reduce unsprung weight. Carbon panels and lighter seats make far less difference than a substantial reduction in unsprung weight on a heavy car. So that is brakes, suspension and wheels and tyres too (runflats are heavier).

I suspect the new suspension is lighter than stock. Ceramics are much lighter and the PSS are lighter too - that lot will make a MASSIVE difference to the way the car handles.

The PSS are standard on the 458 Italia, and that has no trouble on a circuit. Think of them as CUP tyres with wet grip. Realistically they are no more an all-year tyre than the dunlops. When it drops below 7 deg C you should be on winter tyres, period.

However, above that - I always use the best available, so I am very tempted by the PSS once these Dunlops kill themselves.

[Adamantium]

Me too. Am a bit gutted that I'm going to have to go onto the Dunlops from scratch. Was looking to get the PSS ASAP.

Totally agree re the 7 degree cut off, but I use a winter car rather than winter tyres. (see sig)

[Henry 145]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

Me too. Am a bit gutted that I'm going to have to go onto the Dunlops from scratch. Was looking to get the PSS ASAP.

Totally agree re the 7 degree cut off, but I use a winter car rather than winter tyres. (see sig)

Why not sell the Dunlops on?

Looking forward to this new suspension from Iain

[Blade]

You shouldn't really refit a set of run flats. I believe it's easy to damage them on removal and not easy to see the damage. General recommendation is once removed it should be binned.

Of course that doesnt mean it can't be done.

[Blade]

Originally Posted by Adamantium

Me too. Am a bit gutted that I'm going to have to go onto the Dunlops from scratch. Was looking to get the PSS ASAP.

Totally agree re the 7 degree cut off, but I use a winter car rather than winter tyres. (see sig)

How long do dunlops last?

[Adamantium]

Depends how hard you drive.

I haven't owned any one GTR long enough to find out!

[Blade]

Lol.

I'm guessing 10k max

You could sell your wheels with tyres.

I might buy them