Imitation wheels vs genuine wheel discussion.. - Page 23 - GT-R Register - Nissan Skyline and GTR Owners Club forum

Want to buy a banner ad? Find out more here.

Go Back   GT-R Register - Nissan Skyline and GTR Owners Club forum > General > General Nissan Skyline Chat
Register Garage FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Insurance


Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25th April 2013, 12:08 PM   #441 (permalink)
tarmac terror is Wondering why it says 'New User' below.....*confused*
New Users
 
tarmac terror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Hampshire, but Scottish through and through!
Cars owned: Genuine R32 GTR; Genuine X5 4.8iS; Replica Renault Megane 1.6; Reasonably Genuine Peugeot 306 Rallye
Posts: 8,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by PS30-SB View Post
Did you honestly not know about that?

Wow....
*UPDATE*............ I don't know everything!!

TT
__________________
R32GTR- Stage 6; Frank Baxter exhaust with K-pipe; Rick Astley cams; Dave Gahan electrics; Bjorn Ulvaeus race prep; Howard Jones gearbox upgrade; Ray Charles body mods and styling. Mapped by Glenn Medeiros.------> Beat that R35 owners with dodgy parts list sigs :)
tarmac terror is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 12:14 PM   #442 (permalink)
rotawheelsuk is unaware they can edit their status
GTR.co.uk seasoned Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by PS30-SB View Post
For the most part, the Japanese companies kind of grew out of it and went on to create their own designs,
Yeh, they've completely grown out of it, look at how super original their latest wheel is



Im sure Newera wouldnt sell you a set of those thou, being replicas of well, the Nismo wheels, or dare I say it the Rota GTR
__________________
rotawheelsuk is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 12:17 PM   #443 (permalink)
tonigmr2 is wanting a drive but is too busy
Moderator
 
tonigmr2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Herts
Cars owned: MR2 TC, GT86, R35GTR, Disco4
Posts: 13,448
So are we saying it is normal industry practice to copy other wheel designs and Rota just do that because everyone else does?

Interested from Rota - would you describe yourselves as a budget or premium brand?
__________________
The future is Gold.

Girls drive GTRs too!!
tonigmr2 is offline  
 
Old 25th April 2013, 12:23 PM   #444 (permalink)
PS30-SB is having a nice cup of tea
GTR.co.uk seasoned Member
 
PS30-SB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: London, UK.
Cars owned: Genuine HS30-H x 2, HLS30, Replica PS30-SB project, genuine KPGC10.
Posts: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotawheelsuk View Post
Yeh, they've completely grown out of it, look at how super original their latest wheel is
Didn't say they had "completely" grown out of it, did I? We all know what goes on ( or some of us do, anyway ). I'm fairly pragmatic about the subject, having been involved in making 'replica' parts for my own projects and the projects of others. Including magnesium wheels.

With many of these designs, mother nature got there first anyway...




You haven't forgotten about a Japanese retailer for Rota Shakotans, have you? Gentle reminder.
__________________

Last edited by PS30-SB; 25th April 2013 at 12:26 PM..
PS30-SB is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 02:38 PM   #445 (permalink)
akasakaR33 is exhausted
Executive GTR Owners Club Member
 
akasakaR33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tokyo
Cars owned: R33 GT-R
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by yodookie View Post
JWL and VIA are not the same thing.

Please read what the JWL standard is : the JWL mark, cast or forged into the wheel, indicates that the wheel has been self-certified by its manufacturer to meet the standard. I can self-certify that my wheels I made out of cheese meet the standard, you see where I'm going with this?


The Vehicle Inspection Association of Japan (VIA) independently tests wheels for JWL compliance. The certificate you need (and the one that matters) is from VIA, not JWL.


ETA: It's not that it totally matters, I'm sure the ROTAs would probably pass if tested. My issue is that they may be using the VIA mark when they have not been tested by VIA. If it can be proven that VIA has a valid VIA inspection for say, their TE37 copy wheel, then I will be glad to not bring it up again.
Well stated. JWL is self certified, VIA requires testing and THEN registration. That's what worries me too, was such registration done?

On the other hand, if we can show that ROTA wheels have VIA registration, then honestly, I will be happy for everyone.

Seriously, I will be happy to be wrong in this case, as far as the VIA registration is concerned... because then, we can all go home knowing that ROTAs are WELL MADE copies! (again, whether they are "fake" or not, is subject to personal interpretation).
__________________
My Mine's Tuned R33 GT-R at r33gt-r.com or click:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


R33 GT-R Photos/Videos on Facebook (people send me your photos!) at facebook.com/BCNR33 - or click

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
akasakaR33 is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 02:42 PM   #446 (permalink)
akasakaR33 is exhausted
Executive GTR Owners Club Member
 
akasakaR33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tokyo
Cars owned: R33 GT-R
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
hahaha with all my love buddy =)

as I said, you know better than me. if you think ROTA/PAWI still has to prove something else, its no longer up to me. tbh, I have loads of assignments due this week which are more important

as I can see, this thread will just simply not stop. issues after another which then will circle around.

but of course, I give my respect to you. I am well impressed how you have been pursuing this matter (I mean it... no sarcasm).

I have nothing against ROTA and so of course with any expensive wheels such as Rays, et al.

this was a simple thread which then became a big issue.

my argument is simple. TESCO baked beans vs. HEINZ baked beans. is Tesco fake?

btw, if you want the registration, of course I can. as I said earlier..... not on my expense as this can not be acquired thru emails neither phone calls. im sure you know that.

peace
Me too - I actually have lots to do, but this was too interesting to let up... I seriously hope I haven't offended TOO many people... my goal again, was to ensure that people who buy ROTAs really understand what these copy wheels are about. This forum is a perfect place to get it all out in the open.

Anyway, while I am glad that ROTA has obtained JWTC approval so they can self certify - yes, if you (or anyone else) can get proof of VIA registration then we can close the book on THAT particular issue.

Peace back at you bro!
__________________
My Mine's Tuned R33 GT-R at r33gt-r.com or click:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


R33 GT-R Photos/Videos on Facebook (people send me your photos!) at facebook.com/BCNR33 - or click

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
akasakaR33 is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 02:50 PM   #447 (permalink)
akasakaR33 is exhausted
Executive GTR Owners Club Member
 
akasakaR33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tokyo
Cars owned: R33 GT-R
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by PS30-SB View Post
Can you tell me where I can buy some in Japan?

For example, Rota 'Shakotan' design ( a direct knock-off of Hayashi's 'Street' design ). What retailer in Japan, where?

Should be easy for you to answer now......
Yeah, good point. I've never seen them for sale here in Japan, so wondering why they are an "industry partner" as on the drift link...

every time I do a search in Japanese for "ROTA wheels" I get a bunch of links to "Rota Virus".... really! (not trying to be funny, just saying that there is no Japanese internet presence...)
__________________
My Mine's Tuned R33 GT-R at r33gt-r.com or click:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


R33 GT-R Photos/Videos on Facebook (people send me your photos!) at facebook.com/BCNR33 - or click

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
akasakaR33 is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 03:07 PM   #448 (permalink)
nightcrawler is unaware they can edit their status
GTR.co.uk seasoned Member
 
nightcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: hampshire
Posts: 1,314
@yodookie

pls read Q2

https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon1.html

"Q2:Can we label with VIA marks or limited load marks on our own authority?
A2: VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and registered with the Council. In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles."


are you saying that JAPAN LIGHT ALLOY AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL TESTING COUNCIL and that its CHAIRMAN MASUMI SHIBA are not recognized by VIA (Vehicle Inspection Association of Japan)??

@ akasakaR33

hi buddy. i understand your point but ill ask the same question to you?

pls enlighten us.

thanks bud. peace be with you
__________________
nightcrawler is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 03:11 PM   #449 (permalink)
nightcrawler is unaware they can edit their status
GTR.co.uk seasoned Member
 
nightcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: hampshire
Posts: 1,314
@akasakaR33

i sent you an invitation to be friends as my peace offering (im serious, no sarcasm)
__________________
nightcrawler is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 03:14 PM   #450 (permalink)
GavGTR is ,was, and about to be!!!
Executive GTR Owners Club Member
 
GavGTR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Peripatetic
Cars owned: R32 GTR with light modification - Bye Bye MR2 and Celica
Posts: 1,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarmac terror View Post


Ouch Miguel...that must've hurt...



TT
__________________
GTROCer
"Own a GTR - RESISTENCE IS FUTILE!"

Last edited by GavGTR; 25th April 2013 at 03:35 PM..
GavGTR is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 03:18 PM   #451 (permalink)
akasakaR33 is exhausted
Executive GTR Owners Club Member
 
akasakaR33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tokyo
Cars owned: R33 GT-R
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotawheelsuk View Post
To clarify I am the owner of Rota Wheels UK, who hold the rights to the Rota brand in the UK and Europe.
Fantastic.

Ok I will admit I am one of the ones who have called into doubt the character of the ROTAs. But, as I have said earlier, my goal is to make sure ROTA buyers, as well as the rest of us, have a clear picture of what ROTA is all about.

To summarize, I think we all agree on the following:
1) ROTA wheel designs are copies of other designs out there.
2) ROTA wheels have the JWL and VIA markings
3) ROTA wheels are cast, where sometimes the originals which they copy are forged.

For #3, there was discussion on the durability (not by me), but others have defended ROTA wheels and this discussion is, I think, over. There was also discussion on how there would be more unsprung weight vs a similar forged wheel, but this discussion seems to have petered out, as well.

For #2, the copy of the certificate that Ron provided did wonders, because it showed that the JWTC DID inspect ROTA equipment at the factory, and gave it a passing grade. So, this would allow ROTA to "self certify" and legitimately place the JWL mark on their wheels.

The issue here, however - and I am hoping you can help on this - is whether or not the VIA mark is legitimate. The wheel must be tested, and then registered at JWTC, to be allowed to display the VIA logo. When I called JWTC here in Japan, the gentleman I spoke to claimed he had never heard of ROTA and that ROTA was not registered in Japan. This lead me, and others, to believe, that there could be a problem with misrepresentation for this VIA logo.

Would you be able to help us clarify this by providing proof of such registration please?

Also a question for you - if ROTA wheels are indeed JWL and VIA certified, why is it not possible to find any text that says so? (I note, for example, that this link - Rare Rims | Rota Wheels UK - merely says that ROTA is "tested to JWL and VIA standards", but I think this is different from actual VIA registration??)

Now - even if it turns out that the VIA logo IS INDEED legitimate, (and this is good because then QUALITY of the wheel will no longer be in question) then the next step would be to resolve the following:

#1 - Our discussion has been centered mostly on the ROTA copy of the RAYS TE37 wheel. The fact that ROTA copies - for some people, this constitutes intellectual property infringement, but to others, they don't care. Do you know if ROTA has been licensed by RAYS, for example, so that ROTA has the full legal right to make this copy? Or, do you know what ROTA's official stance is on these wheels which are copies of wheels of other manufacturers? Does ROTA believe, for example, that their wheel design does NOT constitute infringement of intellectual property?

Thanks in advance,

Aki

PS - very, VERY interesting re the Tommy Kaira thing... hmmm....I would like an explanation from Miguel as well...
__________________
My Mine's Tuned R33 GT-R at r33gt-r.com or click:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


R33 GT-R Photos/Videos on Facebook (people send me your photos!) at facebook.com/BCNR33 - or click

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
akasakaR33 is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 03:22 PM   #452 (permalink)
akasakaR33 is exhausted
Executive GTR Owners Club Member
 
akasakaR33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tokyo
Cars owned: R33 GT-R
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
@akasakaR33

i sent you an invitation to be friends as my peace offering (im serious, no sarcasm)
No peace offering needed, I don't think we were ever at war? Just friendly (but heated, LOL) disagreements I think between some of us more stubborn members? But, yeah sure will accept.

So any plans to visit Japan anytime soon? Bring all your questions and I'll help you get them all answered (really!). LOL

Aki
__________________
My Mine's Tuned R33 GT-R at r33gt-r.com or click:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


R33 GT-R Photos/Videos on Facebook (people send me your photos!) at facebook.com/BCNR33 - or click

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
akasakaR33 is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 03:24 PM   #453 (permalink)
akasakaR33 is exhausted
Executive GTR Owners Club Member
 
akasakaR33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tokyo
Cars owned: R33 GT-R
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
@yodookie

pls read Q2

https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon1.html

"Q2:Can we label with VIA marks or limited load marks on our own authority?
A2: VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and registered with the Council. In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles."


are you saying that JAPAN LIGHT ALLOY AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL TESTING COUNCIL and that its CHAIRMAN MASUMI SHIBA are not recognized by VIA (Vehicle Inspection Association of Japan)??

@ akasakaR33

hi buddy. i understand your point but ill ask the same question to you?

pls enlighten us.

thanks bud. peace be with you
Yeah let me read the Japanese... standby....
__________________
My Mine's Tuned R33 GT-R at r33gt-r.com or click:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


R33 GT-R Photos/Videos on Facebook (people send me your photos!) at facebook.com/BCNR33 - or click

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
akasakaR33 is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 03:40 PM   #454 (permalink)
akasakaR33 is exhausted
Executive GTR Owners Club Member
 
akasakaR33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tokyo
Cars owned: R33 GT-R
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
@yodookie

pls read Q2

https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon1.html

"Q2:Can we label with VIA marks or limited load marks on our own authority?
A2: VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and registered with the Council. In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles."


are you saying that JAPAN LIGHT ALLOY AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL TESTING COUNCIL and that its CHAIRMAN MASUMI SHIBA are not recognized by VIA (Vehicle Inspection Association of Japan)??

@ akasakaR33

hi buddy. i understand your point but ill ask the same question to you?

pls enlighten us.

thanks bud. peace be with you
Ok - the answer to your question is: The Japan Vehicle Inspection Association - VIA (confusingly referred above as "Vehicle Inspection") is one of 3 entities that make up the JAPAN LIGHT ALLOY AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL TESTING COUNCIL. The other two entities are: 1) Japan Aluminum Association (JAA), and 2) Nippon Auto Parts Aftermarket Committee (NAPAC).

VIA is described as the "independent third party testing institution" and does the testing. If the wheel passes, then the wheel is registered with the COUNCIL.

So this also means, you cannot "self test" to obtain VIA certification, which is what this second Answer is trying to explain (makes more sense in Japanese).
__________________
My Mine's Tuned R33 GT-R at r33gt-r.com or click:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


R33 GT-R Photos/Videos on Facebook (people send me your photos!) at facebook.com/BCNR33 - or click

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by akasakaR33; 25th April 2013 at 03:43 PM..
akasakaR33 is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 03:52 PM   #455 (permalink)
CrysAk is aware they can edit their status
GTR.co.uk seasoned Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotawheelsuk View Post
but yeh, we hate replicas

there's a difference between notifying the buyer that it's a replica and taking credit for replicating an already existing product by putting your own brand name on it. and this is something already touched on in this very thread, so as for calling out Miguel in a thread FIVE years ago, you seem to be guilty of the same thing, in the exact same thread.

also with regards to the SSR comments, it looks like you're trying to shift blame and change the subject so that he starts to now defend himself, but in doing so you're also admitting that rota is similar to SRR and that they are imitation wheels under a different name.

So although it looks on the surface that you're trying to make a fool of Miguel ( with your rota buddies mercurially jumping on the band wagon), you're inadvertently admitting to a number of accusations in this very thread.

namely that they are copied designs of original wheels under a different name ... after all ..

selling a few replica wheels is one thing (who doesn't want big money looking wheels for 1/3 the price ... but the problem is, how do i find the original seller of the replica wheels if they are marketed as original .. after all there's no name/brand to "goto" but ... make sure you change a few insignificant things and slap your own brand name on it, and all of a sudden you have a name and people now know where they can get these replica wheels from. Ergo ROTA was born.
__________________

Last edited by CrysAk; 25th April 2013 at 04:01 PM..
CrysAk is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 04:15 PM   #456 (permalink)
nightcrawler is unaware they can edit their status
GTR.co.uk seasoned Member
 
nightcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: hampshire
Posts: 1,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by akasakaR33 View Post
Ok - the answer to your question is: The Japan Vehicle Inspection Association - VIA (confusingly referred above as "Vehicle Inspection") is one of 3 entities that make up the JAPAN LIGHT ALLOY AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL TESTING COUNCIL. The other two entities are: 1) Japan Aluminum Association (JAA), and 2) Nippon Auto Parts Aftermarket Committee (NAPAC).

VIA is described as the "independent third party testing institution" and does the testing. If the wheel passes, then the wheel is registered with the COUNCIL.

So this also means, you cannot "self test" to obtain VIA certification, which is what this second Answer is trying to explain (makes more sense in Japanese).
so you are saying that it is an umbrella, right?

hence:

MAIN:

JAPAN LIGHT ALLOY AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL TESTING COUNCIL is the main one

and under are:
VIA
JAA
NAPAC

this is how i understand your explanation Aki.

do you mean that Japan Light alloy Automotive Council does not have any right to certify VIA? which i pressume it is the main/council? it does not make any sense bud... pls enlighten us more.

im more than happy to concede and accept the bitterness of reality if ROTA is fake despite the certificate i posted in their behalf and rarerims.co.uk's statement and rotawheels.uk's clarifications. not to mention, miguel's admission/apologies on the same issue 5years ago.

would be nice if miguel says something about this.

btw... thanks for accepting my offer hehe =) ive got cousins who live in Japan and would love to visit someday. and yeah ive got loads of questions which i will bombard you of about GTR plus of course i will politely ask you if you can show me the best car meets around ho hey lol

ron
__________________
nightcrawler is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 04:28 PM   #457 (permalink)
nightcrawler is unaware they can edit their status
GTR.co.uk seasoned Member
 
nightcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: hampshire
Posts: 1,314
@Aki

i think it would be great to ask your friend from VIA again. this seems to be his/her words against the document. unless VIA can prove that ROTA is fake, then i will consider the document as genuine and ROTA is certified. this seems unfair for ROTA after showing the certificate and their confirmation. they have done their part. dont you think?
__________________
nightcrawler is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 04:40 PM   #458 (permalink)
nightcrawler is unaware they can edit their status
GTR.co.uk seasoned Member
 
nightcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: hampshire
Posts: 1,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrysAk View Post
there's a difference between notifying the buyer that it's a replica and taking credit for replicating an already existing product by putting your own brand name on it. and this is something already touched on in this very thread, so as for calling out Miguel in a thread FIVE years ago, you seem to be guilty of the same thing, in the exact same thread.

also with regards to the SSR comments, it looks like you're trying to shift blame and change the subject so that he starts to now defend himself, but in doing so you're also admitting that rota is similar to SRR and that they are imitation wheels under a different name.

So although it looks on the surface that you're trying to make a fool of Miguel ( with your rota buddies mercurially jumping on the band wagon), you're inadvertently admitting to a number of accusations in this very thread.

namely that they are copied designs of original wheels under a different name ... after all ..

selling a few replica wheels is one thing (who doesn't want big money looking wheels for 1/3 the price ... but the problem is, how do i find the original seller of the replica wheels if they are marketed as original .. after all there's no name/brand to "goto" but ... make sure you change a few insignificant things and slap your own brand name on it, and all of a sudden you have a name and people now know where they can get these replica wheels from. Ergo ROTA was born.
ROTA did not say the are RAYS, did they? did ROTA say their wheels are forged? cant remember buddy.

copying style as much as i hate to admit, is a marketing strategy. it happens everywhere and anywhere. but they did not put RAYS logo on their wheels, did they? Riverisland has chino trousers, and so does primark, Next, Burton, etc. and they all have the same style and looks. so whats wrong with that? i assume you hate primark, riverislan, etc clothes if they were replicated?

i think it was miguel who accused ROTA about fake five years ago and miguel proved himself wrong hence he apologised. apologies were accepted.

peace be with you sir
__________________
nightcrawler is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 04:43 PM   #459 (permalink)
nightcrawler is unaware they can edit their status
GTR.co.uk seasoned Member
 
nightcrawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: hampshire
Posts: 1,314
i knew this thread is not gona stop heeee heeee heeee

i come in peace and love everyone =)
__________________
nightcrawler is offline  
Old 25th April 2013, 04:50 PM   #460 (permalink)
CrysAk is aware they can edit their status
GTR.co.uk seasoned Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
ROTA did not say the are RAYS, did they? did ROTA say their wheels are forged? cant remember buddy.

copying style as much as i hate to admit, is a marketing strategy. it happens everywhere and anywhere. but they did not put RAYS logo on their wheels, did they? Riverisland has chino trousers, and so does primark, Next, Burton, etc. and they all have the same style and looks. so whats wrong with that? i assume you hate primark, riverislan, etc clothes if they were replicated?

i think it was miguel who accused ROTA about fake five years ago and miguel proved himself wrong hence he apologised. apologies were accepted.

peace be with you sir
You must of misread my post (or not understood it) because your reply is as if it's in reply to something completely different, but it's a 31 long page thread and i'm referencing 3-4 separate posts (but quoting only one) so i'm guessing you're getting confused somewhere along the line, perhaps i should of quoted everything i was referencing but, in all honesty i don't have the time for that, esp with fanbois jumping in and making a fool of themselves every 5 minutes

FWIW i'm on the fence about this stuff, i know exactly what the deal is and can see both sides of the story, my problem is with people being ignorant to the obvious facts, after all ignorance is bliss ^^
__________________

Last edited by CrysAk; 25th April 2013 at 04:55 PM..
CrysAk is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
http://www.Tyreforums.com

tyreforums

 

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.