HELP double turbo failure
 

Hi all,

looking for some worldly advice from fellow GTR owners.....

I have recently purchased a R32 GTR and it has a newly rebuilt engine with steel wheel turbos also rebuilt....

after 1500km I have had a double turbo failure! both are totally gone (took them off and the turbo builder pulled them apart in front of me...)

he stated that they had been starved of oil..... and they did look very worn out! (thrust bearing was nearly gone and a lot of shaft play...)

went back to the engine builder where the car was in bits for him to check oil supply.... and it has great oil pressure and supply.....in his words

what else could cause this type of failure?


I have done a search here on this site, and came up with something about an oil restrictor banjo bolt? what is that all about? and would this have been on my car from stock turbos??? (they were just stockies rebuilt)

any help would be great!


currently car has had GT-SS turbos put on, but I still have this fear that there is a problem with the oil supply....

You only get the restrictor Banjo bolts on Roller bearing turbos but it is still worth posting a picture of what you have fitted. What was your gauge pressure like when driving the car you may have worn oil pump etc, your builder cant of checked the pressure at 6000 rpm plus with the turbos removed

ok it is a double question really....

A) yes the oil pressure was really good, always went straight up to about 80psi on cold start, then as it warmed up droppped off to about 18-20psi when really hot..... this is on a secondary oil pressure gauge (autometer) and backed up with the factory one.....

B) I haven't had a chance to see the car or the new turbos yet (no wheels! as the work shop isnt really close to my house)
I am hoping that the GT-SS kit (ball-bearing type turbo) if it does need this type of restrictor it came in the kit with all the other gear....

I purchased the kit from http://www.nengun.com and in the foto it shows all the bits and peices that come with it, however I have never (until about 30 mins ago) heard of a restrictor system.....

so at this stage I can vouch for the oil pressure, as I have actively monitored it....

what could cause the old turbos (the ones I am going to have to fight to get rebuilt to sell as they were brand new virtually) to fail in such a short time?

the engine builder is no dummy, he has built some of the best GTR engines here in australia, so I am willing to trust him when he says its not oil supply or pressure....

besides, he knows very well that if there is a fault and these pack it in, he will be doing the job again!

Obviously I don't know who it is but do you believe him? Do you know what type of oil was in the car.

I would definitely want to resolve the problem before blowing another pair....

ok the oil in question was 300km old motul 8100

I can only take the engine builders advice, (remember he spent his time building this engine, and it is his rep. that is on the line...) if he says that there is more than enough oil supply and pressure, I have to beleive him ....

I know the pressure was good, as that is something I was able to monitor....

has anyone else here ever seen a double turbo failure on steel wheel turbos?

just looking for some info to be able to take it further with the turbo builder... better to be armed with some knowledge of prior history etc....

Is it possible that the car had uprated turbos on it with restricted banjos fitted & then had the standard turbos refitted but no standard banjos before you bought it??

I guess anything is possible!... but I doub't it, I will be asking the engine builder some more questions.....

Hi Ben

Mate make sure you check the oil feed lines themselves - sounds to me like a crushed pipe or something. What have you heard back on SAU? I can't get onto SAU ATM as work banned the bloomin site!!! I'll try to get on tonight at home and discuss with you :)

Dan

The GT-SS kit comes with restricted oil-banjo bolts. These must be used!

As stated, the std bajo bolts do not have these restrictors.

sorry for the hijack but what are these restrictor bolts? and what do they do?
cheers

The banjo bolts for the oil feed to the turbo's have a smaller hole in than the standard Nissan bolts. This is because the GT-SS's are a ball bearing turbo and require less oil than the standard turbo's.

Even if these weren't fitted with the GT-SS's the damage described above doesn't fit the bill. Running ball bearing turbo's without the restrictors will lead to slow spool up, blown seals in the turbo, and smoking from the oil that passes the blown seal.

Oops, think I miss-understood. The failure was with the re-built standard turbo's and you are replacing with GT-SS?

Original problem does sound like oil starvation tho.

thanks Cord, so what you are telling me is the GT-SS kit should have (came from the good guys at http://www.nengun.com) these banjo bolts, and would have been fitted.....

I do have a bad feeling that the cause of the turbo failure is oil starvation, but the root of it all has me stumped!

it would be "nice" to find that the wrong bolts were fitted to the old setup!

currently the car is still being worked on at the engine builder.... he built the engine for the previous owner HOWEVER he then gave said engine to owner and the owner (mechanic) fitted it at home with the new turbos... so basically there could have been a screw up somewhere there....

the engine builder is a no-bullshi# guy, and would never ever let me leave the shop without the car being 100% so I have confidence in his work :)

car has been there for over a month! but it is getting close to being driven....

basically all I want to know who I need to bark to in relation to $$$$ wasted, turbo guy or previous owner...


thanks :)


will be in London next weekend! whats the weather like ;)

Oil starvation
 

I'm assuming you picked up on the banjo bolts from an earlier thread of mine?
In my case I had 2530's, one of these failed so I went to standard steel internals but the banjo bolts weren't replaced and hence both mine getting starved of oil.
The garage who fitted them described my car as not making any boost when they were test driving it and couldnt get it running right straight away. The garage claims that the turbo's were fine when the car left and got trashed in the drive from Ashford to Maidstone and then from Maidstone to London. Even though I did this off boost and they were the ones trying to make it boost! :confused:
So basically if it's been running fine for a while I think its unlikely these restrictors were left in... you would have noticed a problem before hand... although it is strange that both failed together...

Luke

Ooops
 

Same as Cord... didn't read it propperly! :rolleyes:

Luke

bango bolts
 

where do you get the bolts from & who has a pic, of both if poss. cheers. D

How about, not oil starvation but particulate matter in the oil getting into the bearings and wearing them out.

BB turbos are not as reliable as 'old style' bearing turbos. They have much finer tolerences. They don't have a seperate thrust washer. They rely on the ball bearings for that. Giving them twice the work to do. However, if a seperate oil filter is fitted to the turbo oil feed lines, this will ensure and debris from the engine doesn't fine its way into the very fine tolerence ball bearings. I've seem them on many a cosworth.

The reason I say this is cos its happened to me after a re-build I done myself. Tiny bits of bearing shell were left in the oil gallerys in the block during the build. After a couple of thousand mile, both tubs broke in a very short space of time.

hell! that doesn't sound good R32 Combat! I am hoping that having dropped the old oil pretty much straight away it has eliminated the chances of this happening to me....

maybe I am due another oil change ASAP to flush out any of the nasties....

Ben (williams F1) the GT-SS have the restrictors built in to the actual oil feed lines. HKS intrduced this to the GT series of turbos, as it was something of a problem on the 2530's. My GT2530's already have the restrictor fitted into the oil feed, so this will no be a problem for you.

as I said on page 1, it sounds to me like a crushed, or crimped oil feed. if these are all fine, I guess it could have be incorrect assembly of the rebuilt stockers.

thanks Dan,

yeah all the lines are in good nick, and have been checked over a couple of time with paraniod owner ringing constantly..(me ;) )

looks like I have come to a dead end, as the lines have been shown to be fine, as has the oil type and supply....

once I get the car back I will take it further with the turbo builder, as it seems to be where all the evidence is pointing now....

good to see my GTSS's will be safe!

GT-SS does not come with oil-lines, you remove them all from the standard turbo`s and refit them to the GT-SS, hence the restrictor being in the banjo bolts.

I asked a Garrett technical specialist what the main cause of turbo failure was, and he said engine re-builds :confused:

There is so much swarf, particles, crap, etc in the oil, that it either blocks up the restrictors in the case of a BB turbo, or scores the journals in non BB turbo's, was his words. He strongly recommended regular oil changes and an in line oil filter to the Turbo, both changed frequently after a re-build.

Many stories heard on this forum seem to reflect this. Having both turbo's go together is unlucky. :mad:

A tad pricey, but cheaper than new turbos...


http://www.msport.co.uk/acatalog/bai...eed_pipes.html

at the end of the turbos life.... this is the oil changes conducted.

50km mineral for mineral

500km semi synth. motul

1100km fully syth 8100 motul

1500km double turbo failure....

It now has the new GTSS turbos and has full synth. REPSOL oil.... I will drop this oil in 50km before the car is tuned as a precaution to the above as I am far happier blowning $80 on oil that the $5k on new turbos again :S

filters are not an option now though....