Oil surge? - GT-R Register - Official Nissan Skyline and GTR Owners Club forum

paul cawson · 2nd August 2005, 07:24 PM

If you look at the link below my engine after a track day this Sunday at Snetterton. I braked into a long sweeping bend then as I accelerated you could hear a loud whine like you get when a pump is pumping air then a big end knock. Has anyone else seen a engine that has failed due to oil surge, did it look like this the centre main bearing has broken up and one of the big end bearings is now stuck to what was a new crankshaft.

http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/pau...bum?.dir=/f9af

lightspeed · 2nd August 2005, 08:32 PM

Ouch.

Not done this myself but I would expect that sort of thing to happen.

Did the sump have any extra baffles?
Where you running extra sticky rubber?
Was the oil full on the dip stick?

I'm about to start putting my motor back together soon - I don't like the trust sump with it's low ground clearance so I've picked up a Nismo sump baffle. not sure if that will be enough yet.

Good luck with the rebuild and commiserations.

Trev · 2nd August 2005, 09:13 PM

I would fit a Trust weld on sump extension (with extra baffles) which eliminates oil surge. Oil surge is a problem on heavy track/drag use and is a killer on the GTR engine.

paul cawson · 2nd August 2005, 10:35 PM

Yes will go for the extension, its strange to me that the centre bearing gave out you would have thought the last to get oil would go, or if the bearing was wiped out by crankshaft wobble due to excessive power one of the end ones.

paul cawson · 2nd August 2005, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightspeed

Ouch.

Not done this myself but I would expect that sort of thing to happen.

Did the sump have any extra baffles?
Where you running extra sticky rubber?
Was the oil full on the dip stick?

I'm about to start putting my motor back together soon - I don't like the trust sump with it's low ground clearance so I've picked up a Nismo sump baffle. not sure if that will be enough yet.

Good luck with the rebuild and commiserations.

Oil level was on the full mark,no extra baffles,if you have more baffles and a good oil pump does the oil take longer to get back in the sump? normal road tyres but lowered and uprated shock absorbers, the only cars faster around the bends were the open top two seaters.

davewilkins · 2nd August 2005, 10:57 PM

I always fill my oil to the next mark above the max mark ( an H I think). Along with a Tomei baffled sump I have been ok so far.

lightspeed · 3rd August 2005, 05:46 AM

A well designed baffle shouldn't make the oil take any longer to get to the sump.
It just stops the oil sloshing away from the pickup under high g loads.
The Nismo one uses guide plates and swinging trap doors to hold the oil around the pick up.
Tomei is similar but uses rubber flaps instead of metal doors.

paul cawson · 3rd August 2005, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightspeed

A well designed baffle shouldn't make the oil take any longer to get to the sump.
It just stops the oil sloshing away from the pickup under high g loads.
The Nismo one uses guide plates and swinging trap doors to hold the oil around the pick up.
Tomei is similar but uses rubber flaps instead of metal doors.

If its got trap doors it should be fine, I like fitting Nismo parts if Nissan have designed something to stop surge it shows that there is a need for it.

Chris Wilson · 3rd August 2005, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul cawson

If you look at the link below my engine after a track day this Sunday at Snetterton. I braked into a long sweeping bend then as I accelerated you could hear a loud whine like you get when a pump is pumping air then a big end knock. Has anyone else seen a engine that has failed due to oil surge, did it look like this the centre main bearing has broken up and one of the big end bearings is now stuck to what was a new crankshaft.

http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/pau...bum?.dir=/f9af

hard to be 100% sure, but does look like oil starvation, yes. I always was OK when i ran an R33 GTR on track days with stock bottom end. No extra baffles, i h=just ran a 40 row oil cooler and an extar 1.5 litres of oil in the sump, checked EVERY session. Car ran on road legal race tyres on Ohlins with proper camber to make the tyres work. I race F3 and GT at National level, so I pushed the old girl as hard as it would go, for many many track days. Never an oiling problem. I used Motul race oil.

ExScoobyT · 3rd August 2005, 12:30 PM

Chris - did you have a restrictor in the feed to the head?

Chris Wilson · 3rd August 2005, 01:57 PM

No, the head had never been off.

ExScoobyT · 3rd August 2005, 05:33 PM

Thanks. Also R33GTR with numerous track days with no probs, but still running road tyres.

paul cawson · 3rd August 2005, 09:31 PM

The crankshaft counter weight has also been hitting on the underside of one of the forged piston small end pin bosses

it was the one the shell had failed on, but it shows how close it all runs, I can see why a full counter crank is used now. the forged pistons also have shorter skirts, would have made a real mess of a standard piston.

I had a head oil flow restrictor fitted

paul cawson · 6th August 2005, 03:07 PM

Piston had hit the cylinder head bent the connecting rod, then hit the crankshaft. Now that makes more sense

Abbey M/S · 6th August 2005, 03:13 PM

they never hit unless the big end has gone this makes another 1.0 +/-mm of free play.

This is why the piston has hit the head and the pistons has touched the crank.

Cant believe the con rod is bent , it may be fcuked with the bearing being spun but not bent.

As chris has said always overfill the motor with oil on the track , but if you had a DEFI oil pressure guage with playback you would have lost oil pressure around right hand corners.....

2nd August 2005, 07:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
paul cawson New Users Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Essex Posts: 2,098	Oil surge? If you look at the link below my engine after a track day this Sunday at Snetterton. I braked into a long sweeping bend then as I accelerated you could hear a loud whine like you get when a pump is pumping air then a big end knock. Has anyone else seen a engine that has failed due to oil surge, did it look like this the centre main bearing has broken up and one of the big end bearings is now stuck to what was a new crankshaft. http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/pau...bum?.dir=/f9af

2nd August 2005, 09:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
Trev 360/PS3: TrevSkyline Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,799	I would fit a Trust weld on sump extension (with extra baffles) which eliminates oil surge. Oil surge is a problem on heavy track/drag use and is a killer on the GTR engine. __________________ 12.7 @ 116 mph, Santa Pod May 2005

2nd August 2005, 10:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
davewilkins GTROC Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Derby, UK Posts: 6,025	I always fill my oil to the next mark above the max mark ( an H I think). Along with a Tomei baffled sump I have been ok so far. __________________ Website of Dave Wilkins

3rd August 2005, 09:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
paul cawson New Users Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Essex Posts: 2,098	The crankshaft counter weight has also been hitting on the underside of one of the forged piston small end pin bosses it was the one the shell had failed on, but it shows how close it all runs, I can see why a full counter crank is used now. the forged pistons also have shorter skirts, would have made a real mess of a standard piston. I had a head oil flow restrictor fitted Last edited by paul cawson; 3rd August 2005 at 09:45 PM.

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2nd August 2005, 08:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
lightspeed GTROC Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: South-west Posts: 1,812	Ouch. Not done this myself but I would expect that sort of thing to happen. Did the sump have any extra baffles? Where you running extra sticky rubber? Was the oil full on the dip stick? I'm about to start putting my motor back together soon - I don't like the trust sump with it's low ground clearance so I've picked up a Nismo sump baffle. not sure if that will be enough yet. Good luck with the rebuild and commiserations.

2nd August 2005, 10:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
paul cawson New Users Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Essex Posts: 2,098	Yes will go for the extension, its strange to me that the centre bearing gave out you would have thought the last to get oil would go, or if the bearing was wiped out by crankshaft wobble due to excessive power one of the end ones.

3rd August 2005, 05:46 AM	#7 (permalink)
lightspeed GTROC Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: South-west Posts: 1,812	A well designed baffle shouldn't make the oil take any longer to get to the sump. It just stops the oil sloshing away from the pickup under high g loads. The Nismo one uses guide plates and swinging trap doors to hold the oil around the pick up. Tomei is similar but uses rubber flaps instead of metal doors.

3rd August 2005, 12:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
ExScoobyT GTR Register Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: `down sourfff Posts: 1,052	Chris - did you have a restrictor in the feed to the head?

3rd August 2005, 01:57 PM	#11 (permalink)
Chris Wilson GTR Register Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Shropshire Posts: 1,551	No, the head had never been off.

3rd August 2005, 05:33 PM	#12 (permalink)
ExScoobyT GTR Register Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: `down sourfff Posts: 1,052	Thanks. Also R33GTR with numerous track days with no probs, but still running road tyres.

6th August 2005, 03:07 PM	#14 (permalink)
paul cawson New Users Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Essex Posts: 2,098	Piston had hit the cylinder head bent the connecting rod, then hit the crankshaft. Now that makes more sense

6th August 2005, 03:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
Abbey M/S GTR Register Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The workshop... Posts: 1,964	they never hit unless the big end has gone this makes another 1.0 +/-mm of free play. This is why the piston has hit the head and the pistons has touched the crank. Cant believe the con rod is bent , it may be fcuked with the bearing being spun but not bent. As chris has said always overfill the motor with oil on the track , but if you had a DEFI oil pressure guage with playback you would have lost oil pressure around right hand corners.....