Stock ecu limitations

[Paul Clark]

As i'm completely new to the skyline are the r33 and r32 ecu the same? except that the 33 is tuned to a higher settings.

[tokes]

Originally Posted by SamuraiSam

Power FC will not cost you a few thousand. 1 thousand plus mapping plus AFM cost. Or you can have the stock ECU retuned but then you do not have the ability to make changes yourself. New fuel injectors - head to your tuner. New turbo elbows - head to your tuner. Etc. Nothing wrong with it, retuned OE ECU's are awesome as Zoltarc says. I have tuned many Hondas on chipped OEM ECU's with Hondata and Crome.

I wouldn't really call Honda/Crome/Neptune a chipped ECU. I know it's still the stock guts driving it, but with the real time ability to tune both of those and how easy it is to upload maps instead of swapping in EPROM chips I'd consider them more of a piggyback than just a chipped ECU. Just my 2 cents. I love Neptune though, the RTP board with bluetooth is just fantastic.

[Zoltarc]

Hardly a piggy back, surely the fully 'programmable' term is more fitting for a modified Honda ECU?

[SamuraiSam]

I would consider the Hondata system a chipped ECU since originally you had to run a ROMulator and burn an eePROM. Hondata just developed their technology to the extent that they have a daughterboard situated inside the ECU which stores data and programming. I consider it a standalone since it is fully programmable unit that has raw input and raw output, not a pass-through fooler unit.

[tokes]

Originally Posted by Zoltarc

Hardly a piggy back, surely the fully 'programmable' term is more fitting for a modified Honda ECU?

But Hondata/Neptune add features that were originally not in the factory ECU. 2-step rev limiters, boost control, fuel enrichment by gear, etc.

[Paul Clark]

Has anyone downloaded the base map, if so does it indicate max value for boost,rpm,load( fuel maps only )?I good piggyback installed/ tuned correctly will do for me as long as i'm not on the limitations of the stock ecu.

[SamuraiSam]

The stock ECU is limited to a stock car. If you modify the car you have passed the limitations of the stock ECU unless you modify said ECU to accept new programming. Do you not believe what I am telling you? I realize I only have 4 years experience with programmable EFI and mapping cars, and there are many people out there with 2, 3, 4 times the experiance and a thousand times as much knowledge as I do.

How much experience and knowledge do you have to tell me that I am wrong?

[Paul Clark]

Originally Posted by SamuraiSam

The stock ECU is limited to a stock car. If you modify the car you have passed the limitations of the stock ECU unless you modify said ECU to accept new programming. Do you not believe what I am telling you? I realize I only have 4 years experience with programmable EFI and mapping cars, and there are many people out there with 2, 3, 4 times the experiance and a thousand times as much knowledge as I do.

How much experience and knowledge do you have to tell me that I am wrong?

Who is saying you are wrong? the idea of a forum is to share ideas with others and to learn. Why do you have an attitude with every post you write as if the whole world is against you and your ideas.You write nothing constructive other than argumentative statements. I'm proud that you have four years experience well done. Then share your experience.
If you install a manual boost controller and do not alter the stock ecu. You turn the boost up and the ecu will cycle to high levels of the map.how high will the fuel map go before the airflow meter maxes out. The original question was out of interest but when answered by people like you, my interest has soon disappeared.

[SamuraiSam]

You are saying I am wrong when, after I have provided a lot of good, factual information, you say things such as: "I good piggyback installed/ tuned correctly will do for me"

I write correct information. I have shared my experiance. I have tuned cars with SAFCs and seen cars with eManages and other so called good piggybacks blow up because they are garbage.

the stock ECU is mapped as high as the stock AFM sensor range, which is about what the stock turbos are good to before they break. Zoltarc already posted this and he is correct to the extent of my knowledge. Around 400whp worth of air.

[Paul Clark]

Originally Posted by SamuraiSam

You are saying I am wrong when, after I have provided a lot of good, factual information, you say things such as: "I good piggyback installed/ tuned correctly will do for me"

I write correct information. I have shared my experiance. I have tuned cars with SAFCs and seen cars with eManages and other so called good piggybacks blow up because they are garbage.

the stock ECU is mapped as high as the stock AFM sensor range, which is about what the stock turbos are good to before they break. Zoltarc already posted this and he is correct to the extent of my knowledge. Around 400whp worth of air.

I say things such as above because i'm not a qualified engine tuner with 4 yrs experience. Thats why I'm on here to be educated. Is that hard for you to understand that I'm using the forum as designed. If i irritate you that much why post a response? So good piggy backs blow up? You speak alot about facts what is the percentage? You refer to emanage, i would say emanage would not be my prefered choice as they are awkward to tune.

If your going to be all 'factual' then i would expect a better answer than around 400whp. I new that before i read the post. You dont understand the question or the cars you are tuning. Why dont you say that the air flow meter maxes out at a set voltage on a skyline? because you dont the facts. You should know the range of measurement that the stock ecu uses, if your a professional tuner.

So what break horsepower does your skyline run? and what setup are you using? you must have it running really well.

[SamuraiSam]

Originally Posted by Paul Clark

I say things such as above because i'm not a qualified engine tuner with 4 yrs experience. Thats why I'm on here to be educated. Is that hard for you to understand that I'm using the forum as designed.

It's fine to say things like that at the beginning of the post, that's why you've come and asked a question. But to say it AFTER i've already related the facts to you that directly contradict your opinion is extremely irritating- You've recieved your answer from a knowledgable source and then gone and spit in my face and said "I don't believe you" or "Bullshit." So if you are going to do that, if you're going to ignore the things I took time to inform you of, to answer your questions, why ask the question in the first place? Is it more convenient to pretend you didn't read my answer?

Originally Posted by Paul Clark

You speak alot about facts what is the percentage?

I'm not aware, Paul, of any scientific studies done to accurately measure the number of people who have a well running car on a piggyback versus the amount of people who have melted a piston, versus ran lean, versus _____. If you have any scientific studies showing the benefits and magic that a piggyback is able to work, then I'd love to see them. Until either one of these massive studies gets underway, I'll continue to use my knowledge of how EFI systems work and how piggybacks function and communicate with stock ECU's to guide my selection of automotive computer electronics.

Originally Posted by Paul Clark

If your going to be all 'factual' then i would expect a better answer than around 400whp. I new that before i read the post. You dont understand the question or the cars you are tuning. Why dont you say that the air flow meter maxes out at a set voltage on a skyline? because you dont the facts. You should know the range of measurement that the stock ecu uses, if your a professional tuner.

Oh, I didn't know you new that. A Nissan MAF generally cuts off at a max of 5.112 volts. Like a MAP sensor, you do not want to run up to the maximum voltage, so knowledgable people usually say that the MAFs reach their limit at "About" 400whp. You don't see people using a GM 3 bar MAP sensor at 29psi very often, even though @ sea level you "should" be able to. Instead you say that the MAP sensor will reach its limit at "about" 26psi.

If you want to continue to insult me and say things like "You dont understand the question or the cars you are tuning" and ignore the facts I've presented then there is no reason for me to continue posting in this thread, best wishes, I look forward to seeing your "Engine rebuild" thread after the installation and "tuning" of your AFC and subsequent detonation due to high timing advance #'s. If you want to ask pertinent questions and pay attention to the answers, I'll keep posting, and I'd appriciate an apology for insulting my intelligence (which really ticked me a lot, coming from someone who can't even spell "knew" correctly.)

Read my posts. You'll find that although I am straightforward and blunt I don't insult people until they (and even then, only sometimes) insult me first. I present factual information. I seek to destroy myths and end speculation and misinformation. If my answers piss you off, frighten, or offend you, then "perhaps you should cease asking scary questions."

[Paul Clark]

Spelling? do you think i care about that at 5 am in the morning. Regarding timing advance and detonation, i'm sure my tuner who has more experience than you will have that area covered.You go on alot about how the piggyback ecu is harmful to the engine, doesn't that come down to the person who tuned it. Maybe the ones you fit melt pistons.

The mods should delete this whole post as none of it is useful.

[SamuraiSam]

No, it doesn't come down to the person who tuned it. You really don't know how piggybacks work? Your continued ignorance on this topic even when presented with the facts is astounding. Your inability to understand the subject matter does not make this post useless.

Here are some words straight out of the mouth of a "Professional" who used to post on this messageboard and is still active on FreshAlloy's GT-R forum. Beyond The Dyno » Piggyback ECUs are Bad for Your Health

From Eric Hsu, Beyond the Dyno

Originally Posted by XSDAILO

I took apart an engine last weekend from an IS300 that literally torched a piston. It had a turbo on a stock engine (2JZ) with a piggyback ecu (engine control unit). No names, but it starts with a big “E” and it can’t really manage. If you haven’t figured it out, the brand starts with a big “G”. If you still can’t figure it out, then just add “reddy” to the end. I usually define a piggyback ecu as anything that does not control ALL fuel and timing outputs.

Piggyback ecus (SHIT) by nature are incapable of controlling a modern day OBD2 ecu with highly adaptive fuel and ignition correction routines. SHIT ecus generally attempt to enrich or enlean the final fuel output by tricking the stock ecu’s air flow meter or pressure sensor voltage. This is fine and dandy, but if you tweak your air flow setting, you are also tweaking the timing at the same time (not good). To make things worse, the stock ecu takes readings from your O2 sensors and slowly trims the fuel map to change the fuel output to match what it is SUPPOSED to be. To make things even more worse, many of the newer engines come with wideband O2s so now the correction ranges are much broader and corrections occur even faster. What does this mean to you? It means that you should unplug that SHIT ecu and sell it to some cheap **** on Ebay. Are you a cheap ****? No? Then take that piece of SHIT piggyback out of your car.

Some SHIT ecus actually control your coils/ignitors which is a general step in the right direction. However, some of the shittier piggybacks just trick the stock ecu by retarding or advancing the cam/crank triggers to retard or advance timing. Newer OBD2 ecus are highly adaptive with ignition too. The stock ecu takes a knock count from the knock sensor and continually retards timing until there is no knock. It then continually tries to advance the timing to optimize emissions and power. Over time, if the stock ecu senses that it cannot advance the timing, a long term trim value is “remembered” and the ecu will attempt to advance the timing less often and in smaller increments. This is great feature in a bone stock car and can save an engine. It sucks ass when you bolt a turbo on to your non turbo car. Why? Because chances are if you’re running a SHIT ecu, the A/F ratio is lean. When the fuel is lean the knock count goes up. Sure, the engine no longer knocks with the stock ecu retarding timing, but with the ignition super retarded, the exhaust gas temperatures skyrocket. When that happens, you crack a piston, torch a piston, torch a valve, destroy the head, destroy the block, break/melt a spark plug or any combination of these.

For those piggybacks that control timing independently of the stock ecu, guess what? Those are ****ed too. When on the dyno or initially tuning a SHIT ecu, there are no long term fuel corrections in “memory”. But after your tuning session, you’ll start driving around on the street and putting miles on the car. Since I doubt your so called tuner spent 15 hours mapping, chances are he did not match the factory ecu’s air fuel ratios exactly and the stock ecu will develop a long term fuel trim that globally affects the overall fuel output. At the same time, every time you floor the engine and the O2 sensors are reading pig rich, the stock ecu is also attempting to lean out the A/F ratio and will also add to the long term fuel corrections. Over time, your engine will be running leaner than crap. And what about your timing map? You bet your ass you didn’t trim it at the same time the A/F ratio was going leaner and leaner. You will more than likely break your engine in the ways I mentioned above.

When you get serious about horsepower and reliability, stick to these options with PROFESSIONAL tuning. Stay away from those internet tuners who do not have a place of business. Why? Because when he leaves town and something is not right with your car - you’re ****ed.

Standalone ECU (Apex Power FC, HKS V-Pro, Motec, Haltech, Hydra, etc.)

Factory ECU with reflash (by a professional)

Factory ECU with reflash module (Cobb, Diablo, Sniper, etc.)

If you have a normally aspirated engine, then a piggyback is OK. Or if you have a turbo and are running like 2-3psi, then you’re probably OK too, but who does this anymore? The bottom line is that the only correct way to control your engine is with ABSOLUTE control. That simply is not possible with any piggyback (SHIT) ecu.

AEM has taken a step in the right direction with their piggyback where you can send a mappable dummy output signal to the factory ecu’s O2 sensor inputs. This definitely helps to prevent the short/long term fuel trims from getting too out of hand, but why not just spend the extra money and do it right? Your engine and wallet will appreciate it in the long run.

Lexus IS300 2JZ-GE torched piston.


The piston was literally torched and here you can see the molten aluminum along the beam of the rod. This guy will spend $15k on a built engine and another $5k on an HKS V-Pro to do it right this time. He only needed to spend $5k in the beginning and he would have saved $15k. Relatively speaking, that’s cheap insurance. Nobody said playing with cars was cheap!

Eric has been tuning cars since the late 80's and has founded/worked at places like XS engineering, Apex'i, Cosworth Racing. If you still don't believe the facts, then don't click on this post anymore. There is good information here that other people might be able to learn from, even if you cannot.

[Paul Clark]

now he sounds like he knows what he talking about.

[Paul Clark]

Is the power fc + commander still available to buy? Do we have a site preferred retailer?