What does it take to beat an ENZO?

[gtrlux]

Oh dear, now I am sucked in too . . .lol

But anyway I won't reply to every thing Sidious has posted as I not have time for that.
When I say real world, it means indeed real world. There is no way you can go more then 200kph on any highway world wide without bringing you and other drivers in to danger. The real highways are no race track and you just need a stone, a piece of metal or some slippery surface and you are gone at 250kph! (of course in germany you can partially drive 400kph . .nice for them)

This thread is not about some super car fan boys wanting to give their poor ricers the same performance skills as a so great ENZO . . .but merly passionated budget GT car maniacs, knowing that it is possible to transform every tuning investement in to earth shaking performance gains, the reason why there is such an excitement about japanese performance cars.
Top Gear showed it clear what you can do with an FQ Evo VS. that Lambo! Now just consider for one seconde what a 150k tuned EVO would do to that Lambo on the real world streets (for exemple behind my house in the mountain roads of GIFU) and not on TopGear well arranged track?
The Enzo can still do somethings more then that virtual 150k EVO(because it's build to do them), now what I want to know is, what it would take to make my GTR or EVO do the same things for under the ENZOs exorbitant budget (for 1.000.000$ don't you think I would not come up with a GTR chassis made 100% or carbon as well?)

Tuning doesn't mean using existant aftermarket parts only (therefore the poll option for custome works. Aerodynamics are important as downforce, . . .take the carbon made custome GTR chassis, modified to produce more downforce and ad a carbon body to it (as knowone said that we need to preserve the initial GTR body kit > thinking about wide body JTC kit).

Now you can say that if you change every thing from the original car to custome parts, it's actually nomore a GTR!?! Yeah right! . . . but I think that keeping that RB engine, the Attesa-Hicas, and the orginal chassis shapes (just partially replaced to carbon) would still let the thing be a GTR, . . .

Finally I have seen many marvelous custome demo cars in japan and I bet that it is possible to transform an R32 GTR enough for under the budget of the ENZO to kill that very last one , any time, any where, any how!

[kismetcapitan]

With Enzos selling at $1.5 million, an R32 can kill it, anytime, anywhere, by anyone, for a tenth of that price. I'd put real money on that bet.

[gtrlux]

Originally Posted by kismetcapitan

With Enzos selling at $1.5 million, an R32 can kill it, anytime, anywhere, by anyone, for a tenth of that price. I'd put real money on that bet.

No need for 1.5 millions, the 500.000$ surplus is for the prestige and rarity value. 1.000.000$ is what Ferrari considers it's car to value, and I bet you not need to be Ferrari to come up with some thing better for less then 1million . .

[kismetcapitan]

the last two Enzos that traded hands in Korea did so at a price of $2,000,000 USD. Fook me, that's obscene money.

[Addicted2Boost]

HAhA, loving the plow understeer into that wall... ouch! Shit how wud u feel just making ur $1.5mill ENZO pretty much take to the air, bouncing off dat wall!

I dont understand what that guy doesnt get. Fark sakes, we all know those factors come into play, but again, when are u going to go over 300kph and again if u see most tracks and the average speed, u wont see over 200kph average around the whole track. All he does is fall back on laws of physics... cos thats all he has due to real world cars proving him other wise. farkn hell, we dont need a physics lesson!! But like i said, in ROAD going cars, the midship layout he is claiming is NOT EVERYTHING. A carrera GT with 100KG heavier and 100hp down on power, oh geez, i wonder if it will still keep its "only" 12 second lead over 911 turbo. I would probably bet it wud only a a shade of a couple of seconds with the handicap like that dispite its midship layout.

Like it has shown before with that EVO FQ400 and so many other examples, with best motoring such as the lightly tuned NISMO version going against a 360 modena.

OK so not an ENZO, but on paper the F 360 is so much superior. You say that because of mid ship layout u can brake later blah blah blah tire load blah blah cornering blah blah. Why is it then the R34 GTR actually outbrakes the modena? Shorter distance too. (tested by Driver magazine in NZ when GTR was released) Why does a STANDARD VSPEC2 have a quicker lap time in this video. Why does both the midships (NSX and 360) loose out trailing to the brick like EVO and the front heavy GTR? The 360 is a lighter car too, more power, a wider track. The GTR again beats BOTH midships not only on the track all together, but even during Time Attack as well as best lap.

YouTube - PORSCHE 911 vs FERRARI vs CORVETTE Z51 vs R34 GT-R



And what about this? Most GTR owners have examples alot more modified that this Nismo version. Which really is just a stage 1 GTR with added handling/braking mods.

YouTube - PORSCHE 911 vs FERRARI vs NISMO R34 GT-R

Again beats the 360 and given a few laps wud have taken the 911 too. Not an ENZO, but a ferrari costing alot more than a GTR with the better aerodynamics, midship layout, light weight, similar power to weight ratio etc...

Clever technology... again those factors are important, but in very very high ends of the performance envelope where everything counts like F1 and the like, but in the real world for real road going cars, as i have shown u above, for results, its seems cleaver handling packages like what the GTR and EVOs bring to the table have more of an affect. Well it certainly shows above, i dont know how u can keep argugin to that fact by continuing to teaching us a physics lesson when there are results posted above. Because as you would agree, the 360 has everything that you have mentioned, but it looses out.

Come time, maybe u will think of something to justify the result above...

[kismetcapitan]

that's not fair, the 360 Modena is a godawful car, slow and with humdrum handling. The F355 has exciting handling but is even slower (but feels fast due to the brilliant exhaust sound!).

Sidious is unaware of the most important component of a car - the steering wheel gasket. Far more important than mid-engine, exotic materials, expensive brand, etc.

If Sidious actually does own a Skyline (I'm waiting for proof), he ought to consider upgrading his steering wheel gasket to get a taste of what actual performance is like on real roads, and not from magazine articles and videos. But keeping everything stock, well you can understand why he's as closed-minded as he is.

Let the poor bastard be.

[kismetcapitan]

I think this can be said. If Nissan's engineers can make a fat, overweight saloon with full compromises for daily use like rear seats, comfort/convenience bits, etc, run so fast around tracks, the Italians had best pray that Nissan never decides to build a full-on no-compromise sports car!

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by gtrlux

Oh dear, now I am sucked in too . . .lol

But anyway I won't reply to every thing Sidious has posted as I not have time for that.
When I say real world, it means indeed real world. There is no way you can go more then 200kph on any highway world wide without bringing you and other drivers in to danger. The real highways are no race track and you just need a stone, a piece of metal or some slippery surface and you are gone at 250kph! (of course in germany you can partially drive 400kph . .nice for them)

Who says you can dictate what speed is "real world" and what isnt? What are you going to do?? Ignoring the dangers of street raceing, are you going to tell the supercar driver he is not allowed to go faster than the speed you are willing to go? You going to avoid corners where you know a supercar will excel on?

What kind of comparison is this? Just straightline wangan racing? You should have made a more appropriate thread title such as: "What will it take to beat an Enzo in a straight line" - easy, 750 BHP should be about enough.


Downforce can come into play at 60 MPH aswell as 160 MPH, if a low downforce car (like a GTR) is running wide through a sharp bend at 70 MPH on the ragged edge of its grip levels, a car with higher downforce car can go through it at 72-75 MPH quite easily.

If one car with similar power produces same downforce as the other, but has much less drag, the car with the lower drag will overtake the other car at higher speeds.

This thread is not about some super car fan boys wanting to give their poor ricers the same performance skills as a so great ENZO . . .but merly passionated budget GT car maniacs, knowing that it is possible to transform every tuning investement in to earth shaking performance gains, the reason why there is such an excitement about japanese performance cars.
Top Gear showed it clear what you can do with an FQ Evo VS. that Lambo! Now just consider for one seconde what a 150k tuned EVO would do to that Lambo on the real world streets (for exemple behind my house in the mountain roads of GIFU) and not on TopGear well arranged track?
The Enzo can still do somethings more then that virtual 150k EVO(because it's build to do them), now what I want to know is, what it would take to make my GTR or EVO do the same things for under the ENZOs exorbitant budget (for 1.000.000$ don't you think I would not come up with a GTR chassis made 100% or carbon as well?)

You already admit that you didnt read my previous post, $1000000 usd is not enough to develop a complete GTR to match or exceed an Enzo in *ALL* aspects of performance. Now you mention carbon bodies, that only adds to the costs. Please read my previous post, professional racing consultants are not cheap to hire, nor is track rental, nor are racing drivers who can give you feed back on how the car behaves at different situations.

Really, you and addicted2boost are quite gullible to belive the things you see on TV. Top gear videos are mainly for entertainment, it doesnt prove anything other than show how good the 4WD system on the Evolution is supposed to be for the average driver, they didnt race full bore on a track to show how fast the 2 cars are ultimately on that day. The Murcielago laps that track at 1:23.7, FQ400 did it in 1:24.8 - and this is a "factory tuned" Evolution. How about an LP640, Lamborghini's "factory tuned" model? 1:19.8?

This is my last post on the matter, the reality is: (when you, kismet and addicted to boost all switch off your computers, stand up and walk out the house) ...is this,

- You dont have the budget or the resources to develop a complete car to match a top level supercar.

- You dont have the knowledge to build and develop a complete car to match a top level supercar.

- You dont have the skill and the experience to drive a car to explore its limits on a variety of conditions to know whether or not it can match a top level supercar.

LOL, if you did, what are you people doing here? Why not work for Nissan and develop their GTR JGTC race car if you think you know better than every other car builder out there?!

[kismetcapitan]

according to Sidious, an Enzo should be generating enough downforce on the front axles due to better aerodynamic design, such that at 100mph it would never plow like an FF econocar. Like he said, slapping on a diffuser and canards would never make a Skyline any good in cornering. pfft.

The ATTESA system is a big part in the Skyline magic. Only Porsche has also mastered the art of variable 4WD. Hence, you see two improbably cars - a front engined brick, and what is literally a VW Beetle with 450bhp, outperforming the world's best.

[kismetcapitan]

Originally Posted by Sidious

- You dont have the budget or the resources to develop a complete car to match a top level supercar.

you obviously don't. but the majority of the membership here does.

Originally Posted by Sidious

- You dont have the knowledge to build and develop a complete car to match a top level supercar.

Again, the majority of us ALREADY HAVE.

Originally Posted by Sidious

- You dont have the skill and the experience to drive a car to explore its limits on a variety of conditions to know whether or not it can match a top level supercar.

You clearly can't, you've never raced against a supercar. But some of us have. Some of us have been to racing schools, some of us hold track/racing licenses, and sorry to burst your bubble, pushing a stock R33 to its limits is for children and dilettantes. Some of us who have built 600+bhp cars actually know what they handle like on real roads, at full power, at serious speeds (over 150mph is when the games truly begin). Some of us have driven our TUNED SKYLINES in anger without restraint against cars like the Carrera GT and LP640, and know that it is skill that made us win or lose (I've both won and lost, and it wasn't the car, it was the steering wheel gasket). Some of us know how our cars react as small road ripples start to throw the car around at 165mph, how to keep the car tidy under such Nordschliefe-like conditions, and how to exploit the particular weaknesses of "top level supercars" (every one of them has one) because we've run against them or driven them ourselves, again at REAL speeds.



By the way Sidious, take your three statements and hand them to Nicolas Kiesa. I'm sure he'll agree that A: he did not build a worthy car and B: he does not have the skill to drive it. I guess driving for Minardi or the DTM isn't good enough for you.

[kismetcapitan]

to make it even simpler, and to answer GTR-Lux's perfectly VALID question, to kill an Enzo takes:

1) Superior driving skill.

Pretty simple, isn't it?

You might want to add:

2) A Skyline GT-R, tuned to 800bhp. And toss on some coilovers
addendum to 2): If you are a highly skilled driver, 600bhp should suffice. If you are Schumacher, or even Rossi, a GT-SS turboed GT-R will be enough.

That's the real world. No limits except the driver. And no to$$er who lacks real-world experience with supercars has even the remote right to preach, let alone make authoritative statements about said cars.


btw, regarding the real world, we seemed to have omitted a car that is very dangerous to toy with. An SLR I've been able to nose out. But a Mercedes Benz SL65 AMG with a hot driver - I've seen that car perform to where any car should watch their P's and Q's before taking it on. In the real world. Magazines may not give the car huge numbers, but it is incredibly fast on boulevards. If I had to choose between an SLR and the SL65, I'd take the latter in a heartbeat. Twin turbo V12? 22 pounds of boost? That's a car to respect at the stoplights while idling in your GT-R.

[Addicted2Boost]

Yeah TOP GEAR is great entertainment, im sure everyone agrees. At the same time they do post up valid times. STIG is shown to post a time that is respectible on that track right up there with F1 drivers. Maybe u dont watch it, but they have had around 4-5 F1 drivers to compete with the STIG and i think it was Lewis Hamilton the only one to be faster? (theory as he was on a damp track at the time) Other drivers like even Jenson Button etc, posted slower times.

In anycase, he goes around that track so many times, i think the times he has posted are credible.

Fark u are really stupid arnt ya to understand a point. LP640 being faster is credible and respectible by anyones view. I dont aruge that. But the point im saying and everyone has been stating over and over, is a SUPERCAR with all that development, cost, power, aerodyamics, 4WD, Midship layout etc, still is only 1 second faster. As is the Zonda aswell only 1 second quicker against that EVO. 1 second FASTER for fuk sakes against ur typical saloon with a brick like shape for aerodynamics, heavy front engined car, etc. Of course Mitsi has done what they can in trying to lower the center of gravity in the way of lightweight material like bonnet and roof, front guards etc, but it still essentially a front heavy, 4 door car. What we are all saying is, a supercar like a zonda and lambo with its wider track, wider tires, lower car, midship layout, aerodynaimcs, huge brakes, etc... why is it only 1 second faster??!

The thing is, if its on TOP GEAR, or Nurburgring times posted, or Magazines (not from MAX power u tosser, have never bought a mag like that, more refined and tasteful like SPEED magaizne from aussie) like Driver, Car etc, or track times posted by other people, DVD Best Motoring by racing drivers or WATEVER, they seem to be all bullshit to you and we are just gullible. I guess because they are all just shit and ur a better driver right? And its only a driver like you that can truely exploit the midship layout? Because you know better about the laws of physics right?

[kismetcapitan]

A 600bhp R32 can beat LP640s all day long on any road (exception being top speed). An LP640 is quick, but doesn't take that much effort to beat. The car is too heavy, the handling ponderous at the limit, the AWD system helpful for launching but really gets in the way in cornering.

[gtrlux]

Originally Posted by Sidious

You already admit that you didnt read my previous post, $1000000 usd is not enough to develop a complete GTR to match or exceed an Enzo in *ALL* aspects of performance.

I will just pic up this statement from you. As it seems the only thing that matters in this discussion. . . MONEY!
Maybe not in the UK you will get a GTR build to the ENZO or superior spec for under 1.000.000Euro, but it is possible in japan!
I know a few companies (one around Kyoto) that would do a custome job to make a carbon copy of a GTR shell! And certainly it wouldn't cost 1.000.000Euro to do that, infact they would do it for a fraction of that price. Now just let your imagination free will and imagine what other companies like this could produce for a fat budget.
The point is that japan is not only heaven for quality highend after market tuning, but also a paradise for custome parts manufacturing.

Then when names like Ferrari or Nismo are in fact big names and give you the impression that theses companies are only creating on the highest level of engineering, it isn't really the case! Nismo is bound to their few Nissan subcontractors and since Carlos Goshn killed off 1200small buisnesses to concentrate on core investements (like hireing all kind of engineers around the world to work at a single Nissan research lab in japan), the companies which made the R32 GTR possible for 5.000.000Yen in 1989 are no more working for Nissan!

So it's not a question about being more intelligent then the Nissan core research center, but to simply do (create) the things (parts, solutions) they can't (for budget, priority and lack of focused research issues).

Then at last you say that we (poor mickeys) shouldn't think about "what it would take to make our budget GT , better then an ENZO, simply because we
1) not have the budget
2) Ferrari engineers are gods, and therefore if we are more intelligent then them , we would work there too ex . . .
3) we don't know anything about engineering.ex . . .

I say that:

1) You don't what I have on my bank account, and don't know what I know about what is possible in the world of sponsoring and investement
2) I not want to work for Ferrari in Italy , or for Nissan in Tokyo. So I will never make an effort in that direction.
3) I really don't know anything about engineering, that's becasue I will ask the right peeps to do the job for me . . .