What does it take to beat an ENZO?

[big_rob_sydney]

I think people saying Ferrari are scared of competition are wide of the mark.

Putting F1 aside completely, look at the GT championships around the world. There have been numerous Ferrari only championships, where the tech has filtered onto other models, eg 355 challenge, 360 challenge stradale, and 430 scuderia. All cars derived from competition.

Sure, you'll get all kinds of reactions from individual owners, but to say something like that about the Factory seems out of kilter. No manufacturer has been more represented in motorsports than Ferrari at the highest level, period.

As regards what it would take for a GTR to "beat" an Enzo, this is such a wide topic. Beat it at what? Overall performance envelope, including top speed? What kind of gearing would that need? What kind of aerodynamics? At higher speeds, aerodynamics become vastly more important. A poorly performing car will need signifiantly more performance simply to push a bricklike shape through the air.

I'd guess that a simple quartermile time is easy enough. There are loads of modified cars that can beat an 11 second quarter. But these are frequently one-trick ponies. What about circuit handling? What about braking? Do these cars have composite brakes that can withstand numerous heavy applications, and are able to retain sufficient energy through heat build up?

Are we talking about a car capable of doing numerous laps around a track?

"Beat" how, exactly?

Taking this at face value (rather than simple internet chest beating), my guess would be that you'd need significant modifications, in the range fo 800+ bhp, to compensate for the aerodynamics.

Cornering would be assisted if the car was lighter, allowing greater speed \ momentum through the corner before the frictional grip level was exceeded.

Braking, as mentioned, needs looking at.

And putting all this together, will you have the benefit of a warranty? No. Has the car been built to the same standard as the Ferrari? No. Would you feel confident that you could have many years of happy motoring with it without needing to be on a first name basis with a tuner? Probably no.

I know of a few people with highly modified cars. They frequently spend many thousands of pounds on their cars to keep them running, and depending on the amount of running they actually do, their cars may spend more time in their tuners workshop than actually on the road.

The Enzo will do its thing day in day out, with warranty.

Save yourself the trouble. Buy a different GTR. Try an Ultima GTR. 9.x second quarter mile, stock, with warranty.

[Addicted2Boost]

Well certainly as outlined in this article

OUTRAGEOUS ROAD AND TRACK COVER

under the GTR page, it is faster than an ENZO in the slalom, showing its handling capabilites

The ENZO was made purely for performance, i mean it even has wind up windows to save weight! Where as the GTR still has alot of the creature comforts, rear seats etc... maybe with the V-spec comming out, or if it was stripped bare like the ENZO and lost some weight who knows.

So in terms of "what does it take to beat an ENZO"... if a standard car did this, well obviously wouldnt take that much more to beat it around a track/drag race and with its low drag co-eff that Nissan is boasting, maybe a lil tinkering will allow it to even beat an ENZO in top speed aswell...

This isnt the only well respected publication that has stated this, that the GTR may well be one of the most exotic cars if it wasnt for the Nissan badge and its cheap price tag. Im sure most would agree that it certainly shows itself in its performance anyways...

[big_rob_sydney]

I agree that 4 wheel steering is great, and helps the slalom. No question.

Not so sure I'd go so far to say that it wouldnt take that much more.

Looking just at prices for a minute, the Enzo came out in the UK at something like £450,000, give or take an apartment deposit. We now know that the 430 Scuderia is just as fast around Fiorano, and that costs around £180,000, so technology is improving, and costs seem to allow access to that level of performance more cheaply now. Thats progress for you.

I suspect that it wont be long before we see other cars providing the same level of performance, cheaper again. Maybe the R36? Who knows.

I must disagree with the exotic comment regarding the R35. I think the performance is absolutely astounding. But I think I'd stop short of calling it exotic. Why? Because of the looks.

I know looks are subjective. I like the way it looks, it just doesnt have an exotic look to me. For what its worth, I think the R35 is brilliant. I'd love to have one, no question.

[GTR FREAK!]

well we have a supra that we are willing to race most anything for log books.

Guy in germany with a hyabusa thought his bike could beat us too 200mph and he LOST!

It'll take on the enzo, set the race up...

[kismetcapitan]

A JUN Lemon Supra also beat an Enzo in a full out 200+mph highway race here in Korea, 80kph rolling start, 3 heats.

[kismetcapitan]

handling may be a different story though!

It is a mixed package, and yes, many cars are one-trick ponies. Although people like Sidious may vehemently object to comparing a Japanese saloon to the holiest of untouchable holy cars (mid-engine uber-expensive cars), the fact is that the reputation of the GT-R is that it is frankly the only Japanese car, virtually the ONLY car for the masses, that can be tuned on all levels (acceleration, deceleration, handling) to challenge the highest performance production cars made. (NSX you say? Try making 600bhp out of one, then compare how much you spent compared to making 600bhp out of a Skyline. Getting big power of the NSX has always been the one problem keeping that car from being the end all be all of Japanese performance).

We'll set aside the Bugatti Veyron (also a one-trick pony, a stage 1 GT-R will beat it around the Nurburgring with little difficulty) as well as specialty cars like the Radical.

I submit that the hypercar category really only consists of three cars (in order): the Porsche Carrera GT, the Ferrari Enzo, and the McLaren F1. Only these three cars really put everything together - extreme top speed, great chassis, and superb handling (the F40 really ought to be in there, but in this day and age its acceleration is, and this is obviously relative, slow).

The R35 is really putting the pressure on the Carrera GT and the V-spec will likely surpass it. An 800bhp Skyline GT-R will easily outrun one, an Enzo as well.

But where the Skyline fails is in top speed. The gearing isn't high enough. Eventually, given enough road, a stock-geared GT-R, even with 1200bhp, will slowly but surely get passed.

I think I can say with little argument that no street car, regardless of tuning, can definitively beat the McLaren F1. It's an MX-5 with 600+bhp ffs!

Ferrari does indeed have a thorough racing pedigree. So why is it that their races (as cited above) are single-make? There's no excuse - the Enzo must post a Nurburgring time - the now de facto standard.

And...probably in August when my car has been run in, I have made some friendly arrangements to video my car with other like-minded exotic sports car owners, including an Enzo (this one owned by a VERY nice guy, he also owns the first R35 to enter Korea, tuned by Amuse to about 500+bhp, and respects all sports cars regardless of manufacturer). I'll try to get some of the footage of my car running against his Enzo, put some speculation to rest and see what a mid-power GT-R can do 2 bars boost and a 9000rpm redline, I expect to do well against the Carrera GT however - provided I don't drive ham-fisted and with two left feet!!

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by big_rob_sydney

I think people saying Ferrari are scared of competition are wide of the mark.

Putting F1 aside completely, look at the GT championships around the world. There have been numerous Ferrari only championships, where the tech has filtered onto other models, eg 355 challenge, 360 challenge stradale, and 430 scuderia. All cars derived from competition.

Sure, you'll get all kinds of reactions from individual owners, but to say something like that about the Factory seems out of kilter. No manufacturer has been more represented in motorsports than Ferrari at the highest level, period.

As regards what it would take for a GTR to "beat" an Enzo, this is such a wide topic. Beat it at what? Overall performance envelope, including top speed? What kind of gearing would that need? What kind of aerodynamics? At higher speeds, aerodynamics become vastly more important. A poorly performing car will need signifiantly more performance simply to push a bricklike shape through the air.

I'd guess that a simple quartermile time is easy enough. There are loads of modified cars that can beat an 11 second quarter. But these are frequently one-trick ponies. What about circuit handling? What about braking? Do these cars have composite brakes that can withstand numerous heavy applications, and are able to retain sufficient energy through heat build up?

Are we talking about a car capable of doing numerous laps around a track?

"Beat" how, exactly?

Taking this at face value (rather than simple internet chest beating), my guess would be that you'd need significant modifications, in the range fo 800+ bhp, to compensate for the aerodynamics.

Cornering would be assisted if the car was lighter, allowing greater speed \ momentum through the corner before the frictional grip level was exceeded.

Braking, as mentioned, needs looking at.

And putting all this together, will you have the benefit of a warranty? No. Has the car been built to the same standard as the Ferrari? No. Would you feel confident that you could have many years of happy motoring with it without needing to be on a first name basis with a tuner? Probably no.

I know of a few people with highly modified cars. They frequently spend many thousands of pounds on their cars to keep them running, and depending on the amount of running they actually do, their cars may spend more time in their tuners workshop than actually on the road.

The Enzo will do its thing day in day out, with warranty.

Save yourself the trouble. Buy a different GTR. Try an Ultima GTR. 9.x second quarter mile, stock, with warranty.

A good well balanced post, nice to see this in this forum for a change.

You mention aerodynamics, well unfortunately for some GTR dreamers on here , they dont really understand the level of engineering that goes into managing aerodynamic center of pressure, its relationship to center of gravity, the changes in drag and downforce/lift as the ride height of the car changes, also under braking or acceleration, the load paths, such things that make a huge difference on highspeed corners and bends where supercars really excel in if they were raced.

They also dont really understand how mid-engined cars work in low speed corner conditions. The words poise and precision is not something you relate to a front end heavy front engined car like the GTR, but often you will hear this praise for the NSX, and many well put together midengined cars.

When a supercar or racing car manufacturer designs a new car, they takes these things very seriously and often enough they tend to look the same barring the choice of engines and transmission, because the "basic" formula ultimately works. It is the small details between supercars, racing cars that determine that final few % of performance, the difference between winning and losing. The problem with the GTR and many other real-world cars is they are not built by the basic formula, they are compromised.

It makes me laugh at some people on here, who think the key to ultimate handling is by buying the most expensive coilovers and tyres they can afford, totally neglecting the hundreds of other aspects of a cars chassis and suspension, and thats before the effects of drag and lift come into play.

[GTR FREAK!]

handling wouldnt be a problem for the supra, it has been set-up witht the right measurements to suit it and has been round many trackls inc the ring. The ENZO has posted a ring time and the gtr beat it which was great to see, when the gtr comes here we will have to see what the supra can do against it.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by GTR FREAK!

handling wouldnt be a problem for the supra, it has been set-up witht the right measurements to suit it and has been round many trackls inc the ring. The ENZO has posted a ring time and the gtr beat it which was great to see, when the gtr comes here we will have to see what the supra can do against it.

Unless your Supra (thats if you really have one) is a JGTC racing Supra, you dont have a chance against the Enzo on the track. No chance.

[GTR FREAK!]

got an enzo that you wana compare test that theory?? as i said, over here we race for log books so you gotta be pretty confidant about whats under your bonnet before you roll up.

[mifn21]

How about you get some lap times for us round a major circuit so we can have a rough idea of what this magical jack of all trades Supra can do

[GTR FREAK!]

whats 7:44 around the ring like?

[mifn21]

Impressive, if its provable

[GTR FREAK!]

what do you want to sit in the passenger seat next time??

[kismetcapitan]

lack of downforce is a consideration for the GT-R. I was just thinking about how I seriously doubt my car generates 1000 pounds of downforce at any speed.

A good sports car need not be mid-engined with the driver in front of the engine. Both the S2000 and the Viper use mid-front construction.

I've never driven the Nurburgring, but I hear it's hard. It requires a car to excel in all aspects. So, lacking a mid-engine layout, no handcraftmanship by Italians, overweight, and a Datsun badge made by little yellow people, how is it that all iterations of the GT-R excel on this road course, beating virtually every supercar out there. Must be the hand of God - God must be Japanese

If mid-engined and boutique branding is what makes a car the fastest, why is the Veyron sluggish around the 'Ring? Why does the magnificent, modern, and exotic F430 F1 only manage 4 seconds over a bone-stock wallowy R33 GT-R, fat, unwieldy, heavy and aerodynamic like a brick?

Handling, handling, and handling. The Radical SR8 is a go-kart built around two Hayabusa engines, and naturally, along with the Ariel Atom (another low-powered, extreme handling car), post sub-7 minute times. Clearly, a better handling car is faster. And somehow, the Skyline GT-R is right there. It doesn't take a genius to figure that if an R34 with stock road suspension and 280ps stock engine can run within 8 seconds of a Lanborghini Murcielago LP640, a Skyline GT-R with 600-800bhp and "a set of coilovers" will be significantly faster.

Bottom line: stock, or modified, the Skyline GT-R has always defied the conventional wisdom and has gained hard records for speed through its handling prowess. That's why people talk about it so goddam much. That's why people buy the things, even stock. A fat Jap saloon shouldn't be able to run twisties and straights like a Skyline does, but it does.

But you can never have the prestige of an Enzo with a Skyline. You won't be hitting 220mph either (unless you're running special gearing). You won't have great aerodynamic downforce (but somehow the Skyline gets by without it).

It's one thing for a team of engineers to start with a carbon fiber tub, and build a pure sports car without any compromises and a 620bhp engine, slap a prancing horse on it, then go run 7'47" on the Nordschliefe. It's quite another to hand a team of engineers a HUGE, enormous and overweight chassis, and then tell them to take that car, in full 2+2 trim, and run under 7'30". Who had the more difficult task?

btw, we can guesstimate the Enzo's track time. It apparently runs as fast around Fiorano as an F430 Scuderia. An F430 with 20 less hp and 100 more kg runs 7'55" on the ring. I say at MOST, an Enzo could run a 7'40"~7'45", no faster, with a Ringmeister at the helm.

Sabine Schmitz in my own personal GT-R could easily beat that.