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Old 1st August 2003, 03:12 PM   #241 (permalink)
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Can't see how it could myself - where would it get the extra grip from?
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Old 1st August 2003, 04:29 PM   #242 (permalink)
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Phew, what a lot of fun you have had...

Cem, the first quote from me is the 3rd post in the 'Part 1'

This sparked this whole thing, cool, it was right and remains right.

I posted:-

2 cars... 1 weighs 1 tonne the other 2 tonnes they both have equal power-to weight ratios and torque curve/gearing coincide exactly for each... they are perfectly matched... even down to the 'G' force each can generate in any given curve...

In a race the 2 tonne car will eat the 1 tonner... quite easily....

Simon spent ages saying that above was wrong only to have to climb down, the only 'confused' people are those Simon has made so.
----------


Andyf,

The graph was considered laughable and I said so, it was and remains a prime joke on here.

The orignal was fine as the x-y scales were even units, Simon 'doctroed' it in an attempt to mask his error.

Naughty, naughty Simon

We move on when this matter is resolved. Not before.
----------


Simon,

You have failed yet again to take the opportunity to answer anything that will show up your errors. I don't blame you.

Your toadying to ''Damian Harty'' is frankly puke-inducing... please cease before my keyboard is ruined... ''stand by your beds'' yuck!

Let's deal with your statement just one more time...

''Doubling the weight on a tyre, does not double it's grip.''

Wrong.

I am interested in just how much this level of grip falls off, now I contend that it doesn't until the tyre reaches its optimal loading.

That is getting kinda repetitive isn't it...

So I ask you simply this, your 'not doubling' isn't in that little grey area into which we Engineers put all our little 'instrument and 'inconvenient' little failures to 'close' all the calculations is it?

I certainly hope not Simon as that would be at best disingenuous and at worst the most dreadful deceit imagineable and would certainly destroy any credibility you may yet retieve from this thread.

So give me the simple assurance in your next post that you are not playing fast and loose with the truth like that.


I will explain about this tiny 'grey area' when those 2 lines [the red and the green] are in close proximity they will be in this 'margin for error zone, this zone exists because no matter how good we get at playing with numbers the plain fact is that any surface will have voids and tiny ridges and all manner of distortions we like to call them interstices we cannot really get good readings down to the 'n'th degree because of them, additionally we cannot really account fully for the manner of the adherence and conformity.
--------


Damian Harty [by proxy ]

I append this for you with its date, it is an extract from a paper written by me more than 7 years ago, when I still didn't know half of what I couldn't know.

One thing I never do is decry someone as being just a bag of skin full of beer and wind until they open their mouth or put pen to paper to confirm this for me.

The trouble with the Internet is that you never know who is at the other end of the line.

First we must lose the word 'grip', there is no such thing as far as tyres are concerned we will try as much as possible use the correct term(s).
The correct terms for the phenomena we call grip is Adherence and the smaller and less well known term Conformity.
For the most part we can lump these to together and simply use Adherence...if need be I will occasionally explain how the 2 parts interact.

Tyre adherence is simply the friction between the tyre tread and the road surface.

there are at least 4 constituent parts to adhesion, for us only 2 are of real importance, they are;

Adhesion friction (F/ad)

Deformation friction (F/def)

F/ad has 2 vectors, the first is the 'bonding' of the road to tyre at the ionic level and the second is the molecular 'pull' on the tyre to the road as a result (the pull bit, is that Conformity thing)
The Institute of Tyre Technology is split as to whether the phenomena at the Ionic level is a manifestation of the Van der Waals forces or simple Electrostatic forces...

The way to see this is best when I describe it thus; Microscopic Electric Velcro. The analogy is especially good if you have handy some strips of velcro, if you attach them you can easily separate them by pulling up...that is the equivalent of lift the tyre off the ground...if you put two pieces together and then clasp each loose end and pull them apart along their length it is much harder.....and that is the Adherence phenomena made visible.

Because all surfaces will have the Ionic surface phenomena you can have rubber/tarmac giving grip or rubber/glass...rubber is rich is Ionic velcro!

It is this tearing of the bonds that generates the heat in the tyre this process is called Molecular Phased Hysterisis.


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13th February 2003 01:50 AM


I'm glad you have posted this:-

''The tyre may or may not behave as a proportional Newtonian device at very low load levels - a few tens of kg - but I don't care;''

Because although you have watered it down as much as you can you are correcting Simon are you not?

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Old 1st August 2003, 04:37 PM   #243 (permalink)
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And now ALL the fancy technical terms are coming out to play
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Old 1st August 2003, 04:39 PM   #244 (permalink)
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Well as the 'IQ' goes up, no offence Simon, so can the level of discussion.

Simon, make sure you answer this....


So I ask you simply this, your 'not doubling' isn't in that little grey area into which we Engineers put all our little 'instrument and 'inconvenient' little failures to 'close' all the calculations is it?

I certainly hope not Simon as that would be at best disingenuous and at worst the most dreadful deceit imagineable and would certainly destroy any credibility you may yet retieve from this thread.

So give me the simple assurance in your next post that you are not playing fast and loose with the truth like that.
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Old 1st August 2003, 04:51 PM   #245 (permalink)
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I apologise to everyone here for the following. It is not my style and not the kind of thing I would usually post, but..

WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT!

I am quite happy to have you insult me continuously. Taking verbal personal abuse form a someone so clearly moronic neither affects me nor creates any enthusiasm for me to respond. But I will NOT sit back and watch you attempt to attack a highly respected engineer of such standing in his field after he has taken the time and effort to post on this thread.

I sincerely hope that he is not put off contributing to further debate as you would have done far more than simply destroy this particular thread. Somehow I suspect you would affect him to the same (ie zero) level that you affect me.

As far as I'm concerned you are no longer part of this discussion. I will not "make sure I answer" anything that you request. Trying to discuss this with you is both futile and skin-crawlingly pathetic.

I suspect that the majority reading this will feel the same as we now have a choice of whether to believe Damian Harty (who's reputation and standing precedes him), or Mycroft (who's reputation and standing precedes him).

Regards

Simon
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Old 1st August 2003, 04:54 PM   #246 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SDB
I apologise to everyone here for the following. It is not my style and not the kind of thing I would usually post, but..
False apology.

Quote:
Originally posted by SDB
WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT!
False indignation.

Quote:
Originally posted by SDB
I am quite happy to have you insult me continuously. Taking verbal personal abuse form a someone so clearly moronic neither affects me nor creates any enthusiasm for me to respond. But I will NOT sit back and watch you attempt to attack a highly respected engineer of such standing in his field after he has taken the time and effort to post on this thread.
False galantry.
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Old 1st August 2003, 04:55 PM   #247 (permalink)
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Now answer the question[s] posed to you...

So I ask you simply this, your 'not doubling' isn't in that little grey area into which we Engineers put all our little 'instrument and 'inconvenient' little failures to 'close' all the calculations is it?

I certainly hope not Simon as that would be at best disingenuous and at worst the most dreadful deceit imagineable and would certainly destroy any credibility you may yet retieve from this thread.

So give me the simple assurance in your next post that you are not playing fast and loose with the truth like that.
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:09 PM   #248 (permalink)
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Quote:
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edit - Keith this is the ratio, u will change with road/tyre conditions
Ah, sorry Alex, missed you clearing that up for me

Simon - this might seem daft, but you get front/rear ARB's to resist sideways roll - is there such a thing for resisting front/back roll (ie acceleration/braking)? Or is that implicit in the structure of the car?
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:12 PM   #249 (permalink)
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Talking

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Old 1st August 2003, 05:16 PM   #250 (permalink)
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Hi Keith

That's a really interesting question. To my knowledge there is not a car in production that uses an "anti-pitch bar" (made up name, but may even be correct ) but they have been tested.

The main reason they are not used is that there is little benefit in resisting pitch specifically.

Roll is resisted (as far as performance reasons go) mainly to keep the tyres as flat on the road as possible.

Obviously this is not an issue when it comes to pitch as it will not affect the angle at which the tyres hits the ground.

All the best

Simon
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:20 PM   #251 (permalink)
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Phew! a lot of posts since I last looked. Some more interesting info for me to pour through. Thanks also to Damian Harty for his input.

Mycroft ceased to add anything contructive to this thread long ago and I would ask that if all he is going to do is fling insults that he would stay out of the thread and not let it bother him further.
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:22 PM   #252 (permalink)
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Simon, don't be so precioussss, answer the question please.

''So I ask you simply this, your 'not doubling' isn't in that little grey area into which we Engineers put all our little 'instrument and 'inconvenient' little failures to 'close' all the calculations is it?

I certainly hope not Simon as that would be at best disingenuous and at worst the most dreadful deceit imagineable and would certainly destroy any credibility you may yet retieve from this thread.

So give me the simple assurance in your next post that you are not playing fast and loose with the truth like that.''




In yellow...
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:30 PM   #253 (permalink)
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Simon,

Have you got Mycroft on ignore ?
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:30 PM   #254 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Obviously this is not an issue when it comes to pitch as it will not affect the angle at which the tyres hits the ground.
Well, that's what I was thinking, as do wheels not change in camber slightly as suspension compresses, so resisting that compression could keep the wheels straighter...
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:32 PM   #255 (permalink)
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Great observation Keith (which had eluded me during my last post)

That is probably the reason for the testing that has been carried out.

I'll ask around and see if I can find out what the deal is / current thoughts.

All the best

Simon
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:33 PM   #256 (permalink)
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We are lacking some answers here, I have 3 or 4 yet.

Stop sulking and answer them please... this one would be good for a start...

''So I ask you simply this, your 'not doubling' isn't in that little grey area into which we Engineers put all our little 'instrument and 'inconvenient' little failures to 'close' all the calculations is it?

I certainly hope not Simon as that would be at best disingenuous and at worst the most dreadful deceit imagineable and would certainly destroy any credibility you may yet retieve from this thread.

So give me the simple assurance in your next post that you are not playing fast and loose with the truth like that.''




In yellow...
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:34 PM   #257 (permalink)
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Hi Andy

No. He is easy to ignore manually, and I still want to take a look every time I want a giggle

All the best

Simon
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:38 PM   #258 (permalink)
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Someone here must want to know the answer to my question apart from me.

You cannot hide Simon, you must answer, for your own good.

Try some more graphs, they are a good distraction... for a while.
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Old 1st August 2003, 05:49 PM   #259 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by andyf
Have you got Mycroft on ignore ?
Who's Mycroft?
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Old 1st August 2003, 06:13 PM   #260 (permalink)
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Great observation Keith (which had eluded me during my last post)

That is probably the reason for the testing that has been carried out.

I'll ask around and see if I can find out what the deal is / current thoughts.

All the best

Simon
Cool - cheers Simon. Would be interesting to know
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