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Old 4th August 2003, 08:32 PM   #361 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SDB
I'm not sure how many published, renowned, and celebrated experts we need to confirm this before some people won't think "I reckon Mycroft knows better".
But they all use SLIP. never GRIP.
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Old 4th August 2003, 08:36 PM   #362 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SDB
Bare in mind, that I haven't "made this notion up" (about doubling the grip, blah). This is one of the key cornerstones of understanding in vehicle dynamics.
No, you just got it wrong... slip not grip.

Let's face it Simon, you have been caught on here in exactly the same way that lead you here in the first place... you have been found wanting and in the wanting you have just tried to rally a 'trolls brigade' to shout me down...

All the best

Mycroft.
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Old 4th August 2003, 08:58 PM   #363 (permalink)
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Genuinely folks... the fat lady is howling at the top of her voice, her tonsils all a quiver, we do now need to put this 'Episode' behind us.

I am now happy to do this.

I will ask a moderator to edit the dross out of this which by all accounts will take it back to about 3 pages, it should stil hold some of Simons stuff as much of it is right and of value.

Once it is made manageable again and sufficient time for reflection has passed I hope to revive it and genuinely hope for Simons' contribution as he DOES have much to offer.
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Old 4th August 2003, 09:57 PM   #364 (permalink)
SDB
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Mycroft

I don't know why I feel compelled to answer you, but I will...

Quote:
I append the contention that you finally had to agree with...
If you look at my very first post on the previous thread (and I probably mentioned it in the first on this thread also) it stated that there was a loophole in your statement that made it correct. Where do you get this "finally had to agree to". This was the first post I made on gtr.co.uk. The loophole is the fact that you are able to magically balance out all of the negatives of adding the mass. I then went later to quote a number of other irrational and fanciful examples to illustrate how ridiculous this notion was to the real world, and how irrelevant it was to the thread.

Quote:
Then there is no doubt that if you do nothing else but add weight, then there is no debate, it will be slower.
No. If you take a car and simply add mass to it, it will (unless we think of specific silly examples) be slower.

Quote:
slip not grip
Oh come on Mycroft. Don't be so silly. I have defined what I meant by grip many many times now. Everyone here knew exactly what I was talking about, and so did you. It's silly getting in to an argument about wording when we have covered so many other important things.

Quote:
Genuinely folks... the fat lady is howling at the top of her voice
Why is that Mycroft, because you've stated that I mean slip and not grip?

OK. I tell you what. Let me put it this way.

If you re-read all of my posts and assume that, when I say "grip" I mean "limit lateral acceleration", do you now agree with me?

If so, then it will be a little hard for everyone to swallow that you have argued until you're blue in the face because you thought I meant "grip" instead of "slip".

If not, then what on earth baring would the use of two different words have on whether the discussion is over.

It is clear that you are clutching at straws to an almost pathetic degree.

A lot of the things you say (in fact almost all) are DERIVED from a standpoint of truth, but then skewed to fit some strange logic displaying lack of actual understanding rather than "knowledge".

I keep coming back to this. My time is fairly limited. I do not wish to spend it arguing about such ridiculous things as the comments you post, so I will simply await (again) someone more worthy of it.

You have proven that you are willing to sink to the levels of making up usernames and impersonating people in order to support your arguments. You disagree with the basic fundamentals of vehicle dynamics that support almost every aspect of chassis design considerations. But worst of all, you abuse the good nature of so many people who want to learn, by feeding them with incorrect information just so that you are able to say something that sounds clever. It is amazing you've gotten away with it this long.

There will almost certainly always be people that will believe you and will want to support you. I do not have time to post on everything you ever comment on (as can be seen by the fact this is the only one - due to the fact I was requested to do so (not for the reasons you keep saying)). So I will have to resign myself to the fact that I will not be able to help them.

Regards

Simon
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Old 4th August 2003, 09:59 PM   #365 (permalink)
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Quote:
I will ask a moderator to edit the dross out of this which by all accounts will take it back to about 3 pages, it should stil hold some of Simons stuff as much of it is right and of value.
Hah yeah I can just imagine that PM now...

"Please edit out everyone else's comments as they are all wrong.

Thanks,

Mycroft."
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Old 4th August 2003, 10:00 PM   #366 (permalink)
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Also may I add that if two cars are "perfectly matched" then they would surely be just that, and have identical performance.
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Old 4th August 2003, 10:14 PM   #367 (permalink)
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Nah, you lost... byeeee.

http://www.toyotaimportsforum.co.uk/...&threadid=1488

[Just in case you want more humiliation, come over to the place you belong, a home for Mass Debaters like you 2.
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Old 4th August 2003, 10:23 PM   #368 (permalink)
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LOL

Mycroft, the irony in your post is incredible. How can you ask someone to stop digging both sides of a huge set of digs?

I have to say, apologies to all, but I really don't think I can be bothered to post anymore. I apologise to those who want to learn something.

I'll leave you with this, which has been stated before. You can either believe the world of vehicle dynamics and all the number of authentic experts I have quoted and shown reference to, or you can believe Mycroft.

I think I have done as much as I am able to in order to convince you which one is correct, and must leave it now to your own inteligence.

I'll now leave Mycroft to tell you all how he has "won", and post that all over the internet in his usual style.

Regards, and best wishes

Simon

- Edit : LOL! Just noticed Mycroft edited out his entire post above due to the irony I pointed out. His new post showing us a link poiting to a thread that says "hey stupid, that's you" just about clarifies the reason why I have grown tired of being associated with anything Mycroft is a part of. I know lots of vehicle dynamics engineers that resort to that kind of tactic as an approach to reasoned debate.
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Old 4th August 2003, 11:05 PM   #369 (permalink)
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Really Amazing

One would like to believe (or expect) that grown-ups (?) would refrain from playing child games. Most of us know that cars are toys for big boys. This thread in my view proves that several people are still in the stage of being small boys, only capable to play with their own scrotum. If you boys (not guys) really want to be informative, leave out the "my d1ck is bigger than yours" please. Or define it to be a non-informative banter thread. This is just plain stupid here.
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Old 4th August 2003, 11:07 PM   #370 (permalink)
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Hey now, who said we were grown ups??
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Old 4th August 2003, 11:15 PM   #371 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thorin
Hey now, who said we were grown ups??
Hence my questionmark.

I'm not going to put any more posts in this thread as it is already beyond the status of "informative". Even wearing welding goggles won't help the average punter to find useful information. It's a waste of bandwith and time. Better buy the Milliken Vehicle Dynamics book, anyone with some basic engineering skills, common sense and reasonable maths knowledge will find their way there.

EDIT:
Race Car Vehicle Dynamics - William F. Milliken and Douglas L. Milliken. ISBN 1-56091-526-9

"Written for the engineer as well as the race car enthousiast, RCVD is a comprehensive book on the fundamental concepts of vehicle dynamics and their application in a racing environment. Much of the information included is not available in any other vehicle synamics text. Although the book's primary focus is the race car, the engineering fundamentals it details are also applicable to passenger car design and engineering"
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Old 5th August 2003, 02:57 AM   #372 (permalink)
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The Statement: "Doubling the weight on a tyre, does not double it's grip"

Ignoring Mycroft's later diversionary tactics on the subject of defining "grip", both parties posted, and therefore must accept, the graph in the following document as adequate description of the relationship between Vertical Load and Side Load, and also that "side load", within the context of this graph, corresponds to "grip".

http://www.neohio-scca.org/clubinfo/...educed%202.pdf

25 pages later and no one has seen fit to simply summarise the thread thus:

See Diagram -->

1) Region AB: Mycroft is right to say that The Statement is false within the region AB , (accepting this particular graph) because it can be seen the relationship is linear.

2) Region BC: Simon is right to say that The Statement is true within the region BC because the gradient of the green line is reducing as vertical load increases.



!!IMPORTANT!!: It is the value of B for the vertical load on one tyre that is crucial to determining whether or not a "real world" car falls into region AB or BC.

Until someone provides a validated value for B in terms of the vertical load on one tyre when the rate of increase in grip with respect to increase in vertical load reduces then the statement that the exam question is true in real world conditions must remain unproven on here.

Note: The actual values on the above graph remain unproven also, it is the profile of the graph that is important. We must assume that the values are arbitrary and that the red line represents constant gradient.

Edited to add: in the absence of a value for B we can of course choose for ourselves which region our real world car falls into based on the evidence presented so far.
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Old 5th August 2003, 03:40 AM   #373 (permalink)
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Simon, I despair of you, I speak for many when I say we are all rather shocked to watch you and Thorin, locked together as if in some ghastly suicidal Polka, dancing your way over the cliff of your own previously good reputation.

I removed my 'Simple Simon' sig, I tried to be concilliatory, in fact short of saying what I know to be true is wrong, I have for the last day or so tried to bring to a halt your dreadful and pathetic dance of death.

For me, this is just another enhancer to my reputation.

For you, this thread is a disaster.

Either stop dancing and sit down or put us all out of YOUR misery and just go ahead and jump for Christs' Sake...

25 pages and Simon types the longest 'Suicide note' in Internet history.



-----------------------

Loki, you may not be aware of this but the grip/slip thing has been going on since the very begiining, I have almost endlessly re-iterated Simons statement in an effort to ensure his error was never in doubt.
If you were to trawl thru my posts in other threads you will know that far from being some 'diversionary tactic' it is a bone of contention with me that the word 'grip' is misused too often by people who should know better.
Damian Harty did at least save himself from being seen as big a fool as Simon by distancing himself from it.

If you follow the link I provided [the last of the 4] you will see that there are a set of simple formulas which answer your question.

----------------------

Somberg, that book was described in less than glowing terms by Simon, who to paraphrase him believes it to be fit only for the novice.

I did offer to E-mail Doug and pass on Simons comments but thought it best not to.
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Old 5th August 2003, 08:08 AM   #374 (permalink)
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I refuse to comment on the majority of your post, but had this part brought to my attention...

Quote:
that book was described in less than glowing terms by Simon, who to paraphrase him believes it to be fit only for the novice.
Do NOT mis-quote me. I described the book as "a superb resource", and later as essential reading.

re-read my post.. i said that STEADY STATE PHYSICS is used to assist inexperienced engineers, NOT the book.
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Old 5th August 2003, 09:35 AM   #375 (permalink)
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Originally posted by SDB
Oh dear...

...I bought milliken YEARS ago. It is basic reading for anyone interested in vehicle dynamics. Its *main* focus is on theoretical steady state physics which is used as a starting point for inexperienced chassis engineers to gain a base point understanding of vehicle dynamics.
Not the glowing endorsement I would expect as they are considered the standard by which any other is judged.

Additionally, I did not mis-quote you, I never mis-quote, I 'paraphrased' you and I think got the gist about right.

Look up 'paraphrase' then 'quote/ mis-quote' in the dictionary.

Nomenclature
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Old 5th August 2003, 09:51 AM   #376 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
Loki, you may not be aware of this but the grip/slip thing has been going on since the very begiining, I have almost endlessly re-iterated Simons statement in an effort to ensure his error was never in doubt.
It is clear to the majority of people here that this isn't simply an argument about the definition of "grip". To continually pull the discussion towards that is diversionary, and to use that as a basis for ending the thread with your customary "victory" speeches is premature.

If you want to do something positive why don't you redefine grip/slip for the readers with reference to the statement we are actually debating "Doubling the weight on a tyre, does not double it's grip". We can then move on using common nomenclature.
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Old 5th August 2003, 09:57 AM   #377 (permalink)
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I have to say, it sickens me that I was ever involved in this thread, purely because of your skin-crawlingly distasteful conduct.

Firstly, that statement is stating that (as I said above) STEADY STATE PHYSICS is used as a starting point for inexperienced .....

Secondly, I note you didn't include the very next line of my post which reads..

"It is a superb resource. You sir have mis-understood it".

This is just another example of complete oposition to your own "high and mighty" requests to end all bickering.

How any of this aids the people who are interested in learning, I have no idea.

I don't think I have ever come across someone I consider to be of such low character and I am dissapointed in myself that I have commited so much time to dealing with you.

Regards

Simon
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Old 5th August 2003, 11:20 AM   #378 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SDB
I have to say, it sickens me that I was ever involved in this thread ... and I am dissapointed in myself that I have commited so much time to dealing with you (Mycroft)
I think I agree with that. As I said on page 8:


Quote:
Originally posted by Claudius
Excuse me, but why are you coming here to tell Mycroft what he has to say and what not? And that about threatening him to ignore him is just plain ridiculous: you banned him from your forum and now join him in another forum (where he's been for a while and posted hundreds of messages) to pick on him in one of HIS threads!
To which you merely replied that you do as you please and that I need a special permission to post a new thread


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Originally posted by SDB
Claudius

I'm not getting in to this with you. Please email me, or (with Cem's permission) post a new thread.
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Old 5th August 2003, 03:55 PM   #379 (permalink)
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woof woof Claudius


Simon, I'm very surprised you did get involved here. You of all people should know that these threads aren't about discussing an issue, or people sharing information and learning from each other. They are not even about techincalities at all.

They are simply about MyCroft very carefully wording things in order to catch out the unwary.

I imagine you're kicking yourself for getting involved.
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Old 5th August 2003, 04:07 PM   #380 (permalink)
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Mooseracer

You have highlighted the problem here.

The problem is not Mycroft wording things to try to catch out the unwary, it is Mycroft making innacurate statements and THEN trying to use wording to wangle out of them.

I wouldn't call Doug Milliken "unwary", or Damian Harty for that matter, but both of them view Mycroft's posts as ridiculous and laughable.

The reason I wish I had never got involved is simply that I have wasted so much time on Mycroft which has meant his constant twisting and contorting of the conversation has spoilt the message that could have been put across in this thread, so it is effectively a big waste of time.

I would be very interested to see a show of hands and see if people actually believe what Mycroft has put forward in this thread.

All the best

Simon
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