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Old 30th July 2003, 07:01 PM   #61 (permalink)
SDB
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Apologies I wasn't clear.

If anyone OTHER THAN MYCROFT feels this needs answering, please let me know.

Regards

Simon

Mycroft, we have already established that you do not posess the ability to comprehend explanations, so I refuse to waste my time further on you.
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Old 30th July 2003, 07:07 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SDB
Do you have anything to add to this discussion?

If you disagree with my statements, please provide ANY proof or insight that contradicts it and I will be happy to see it. Until then, I suggest you just soak it all up as you will be able to quote it as your own work later on somewhere else.
Yes, I have something to add occasionally.

I am asking for proof, what you say runs counter to what I encounter on the road and counter to what I know to be true, I therefore need proof from you, it is you that are expounding this stuff, so convince you are not wrong, give me proof.

Quote:
Originally posted by SDB
Do you HONESTLY think that ANYONE reading this cannot see what a fool you're making of yourself? Do you HONESTLY think that ANYONE believes the stuff you're posting?
If I am cast as a fool for questioning what you say, then that is fine.
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Old 30th July 2003, 07:13 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SDB
Apologies I wasn't clear.

If anyone OTHER THAN MYCROFT feels this needs answering, please let me know.

Regards

Simon

Mycroft, we have already established that you do not posess the ability to comprehend explanations, so I refuse to waste my time further on you.

Stealth edit...

Pretty please Simon,

Go on Simon, make my day!
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Old 30th July 2003, 07:28 PM   #64 (permalink)
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In a moment of weakness I decided to do a quick search on google just for Mycroft (as everyone seems to have "got it" pages ago)...

http://www.neohio-scca.org/clubinfo/...educed%202.pdf

Please see page 2... there is a graph showing grip vs load.

Under that it says (I quote)...

"The important characteristics of this curve are as follows :

a. Increasing the Load increases the Grip
b. The amount of grip gained DECREASES as the load increases."

(end quote)

Note the capitals, they are not mine, they are theirs.

Then goes on to say

"How rubber and Tire Properties Affect Handling
- Tire friction coefficient decreases as tire load increases
- More weight transfer produces less grip"

I haven't bothered to read the rest.

---
If that's not enough.. I noticed that the page I linked to earlier....

http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_s...handling_3.htm

Actually has the following underneath the graph...

"As you can see, as the load increases on the tyre, the grip generated by the tire increases, but at a declining rate. This says, when weight transfer to the outside wheel, the grip on the outside wheel is increased, but not increase as much as the grip loss on the inside wheel.
Therefore the total grip decreases as weight transfer occurs. The more weight transfer, the less the total grip becomes."

I hope this is enough for you Mycroft. Although somehow I assume it won't be.

All the best

Simon
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Old 30th July 2003, 07:46 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Makes sense to me, good info Simon.
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Old 30th July 2003, 07:49 PM   #66 (permalink)
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No sadly.

The former supports my statements!!! and the latter is on a optimised tyre, and as I have said [repeatedly] after the optimal point what you say is correct!

Until the tyre reaches optimal adherence [which can only readily be achieved by weight] it cannot achieve the high levels conformity that gives traction at the extremes.
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Old 30th July 2003, 07:54 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Mycroft you have been proved wrong, I think you would come out of this alot better, if you just admit your mistakes.
People on this site want to learn, so you misleading people is a childish waste of their time. Thanks Simon, great info.
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Old 30th July 2003, 07:57 PM   #68 (permalink)
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You're welcome guys. Glad to help.

In the interests of keeping this thread working, I won't continue to induldge mycroft in this silliness. So please ask questions if there is more outstanding, otherwise, all the best and speak soon.

Simon
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Old 30th July 2003, 07:59 PM   #69 (permalink)
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H4D UU, far from it, read the graphs and check the numbers, then return with some numbers, the graphs show that there is an optimal weight that can bear on any single tyre, at some point the red line and the green line diverge... that is the point where what Simon is saying is right... but only after a certain weight.

So again I repeat, show me any proof of that line diverging from '0' or '1' kilo...
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Old 30th July 2003, 08:01 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
So again I repeat, show me any proof of that line diverging from '0' or '1' kilo...
Show me any proof to the contrary then, believe it or not I really am interested to know either way.
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Old 30th July 2003, 08:04 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thorin
Show me any proof to the contrary then, believe it or not I really am interested to know either way.
You only have to look at the graph!

The so called proofs are all in my favour!
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Old 30th July 2003, 08:15 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Which graph? The first one posted?
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Old 30th July 2003, 08:28 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Go to the graph in the first link.

Look at the x-y indices and draw a line [minds eye] thru the equal weight, ie
200 V.load = 200 S.load
400 V.load = 400 S.load
600 V.load = 600 S.load
800 V.load = 800 S.load

Now by definition anything above that line is giving more grip for any weight bearing down, you can see that can't you?

The red line shows the 'upramp' of adherence and conformity so the case can be made that at the point shown where the lines diverge is the point Simon is talking about, but it still happens 'up the line' not from '0' or '1' kg!
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Old 30th July 2003, 08:56 PM   #74 (permalink)
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This is all very interesting.

When I look at the book Mycroft recommends and some others on similar topics, I can see something about "cornering stiffness" as well as the friction thing we seem to be discussing. What's that, then? Does it matter?

I've drawn a line in my minds eye as Mycroft recommends. It seems to be a line denoting mu=1. Is there something special about mu=1? Is it a maximum or something? I'm having a problem because there are no numbers on the graph in the thread so I'm not really sure where to draw the mu=1 line. Sigh.

If Mycroft is right then I think mu is constant or increasing with load and if Simon is right then mu falls off with load. Or have I misunderstood that?

BBB
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Old 30th July 2003, 09:03 PM   #75 (permalink)
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...and I just don't really get what the sentence with "upramp" in it means it at all, despite trying my best. Please Mr Mycroft, can you explain it more simply?

BBB
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Old 30th July 2003, 09:05 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
The red line shows the 'upramp' of adherence and conformity so the case can be made that at the point shown where the lines diverge is the point Simon is talking about, but it still happens 'up the line' not from '0' or '1' kg!
It starts to separate at 600lbs - how many cars weigh (less than) that?
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Old 30th July 2003, 09:12 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
Now by definition anything above that line is giving more grip for any weight bearing down, you can see that can't you?
Yes I can.

But as I look at that graph it just seems to proove that doubling the vertical load on the tyre LESS than doubles the grip produced.

Surely, for very low amounts of vertical load, then doubling the vertical load would produce very close to double the grip and then get progressively less?
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Old 30th July 2003, 09:12 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Mark...

Per tyre!
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Old 30th July 2003, 09:14 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Plus there will be a different graph divergence point for different tyre sizes.
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Old 30th July 2003, 09:32 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Quote:
"The important characteristics of this curve are as follows :

a. Increasing the Load increases the Grip
b. The amount of grip gained DECREASES as the load increases."
Quote:
"How rubber and Tire Properties Affect Handling
- Tire friction coefficient decreases as tire load increases
- More weight transfer produces less grip"
Quote:
"As you can see, as the load increases on the tyre, the grip generated by the tire increases, but at a declining rate. This says, when weight transfer to the outside wheel, the grip on the outside wheel is increased, but not increase as much as the grip loss on the inside wheel.
Therefore the total grip decreases as weight transfer occurs. The more weight transfer, the less the total grip becomes."
How come those sources make a point of saying that the rate decreases as the load increases? Surely if it was relevant they would say that "the rate decreases as the load increases after a point"?

It sounds like you're clutching at straws to me - surely only real-world examples are relevant, rather than some obscure scenario which you're using to try and "win" an argument?
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