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Old 24th February 2019, 11:01 AM   #821 (permalink)
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Hmmmm....That's a real sticky can of worms and frighteningly grey area Mook!

True Restorations are when you take back a vehicle to its absolute original condition as made by the manufacturer when it was brand spanking new. This means original coatings (zinc plate etc), old porous factory sealers, paints and genuine OEM Nissan parts only. If Nissan didn't do it or fit it, The car cannot have it... As simple as that!

Where as what the majority of the Skyline Owners do (myself included here from what I've seen of project threads here on the Forum) is really a rust prevention modification for Our UK climate by using new steel (where and when required), modern paints sealers and other rust inhibitors along with stone chip products, sound deadening sprays and other under body coatings with new poly or other uprated bushings and extra chassis braces too!





I'm sorry to be so pedantic Mike but I honestly only mean to be didactic here by showing people the actual difference between a true vehicle restoration and most peoples rust beating project conclusions. I mean, Who in their right mind isn't going to paint and protect all the parts that Nissan didn't back in the 1990's?! And sadly there are a lot of these vulnerable areas when you start pealing back the plastic guards....

So, My type of acid etching efforts above are not a restoration. Its more of a modern under body refresh interpretation anyone can do that will hopefully allow me to keep rust at bay and enjoy driving my Skyline GT-R until they start banning Our terrible cars outright in the early 2040's for strange environmental reasons.

JM2PW!
Pedantry excused. Restored was perhaps the wrong word but I’d be curious to see the state of many of the cars that have had many thousands spent to treat and prevent corrosion, a few years down the line. Toni’s is a fine example of someone spending the right money, on the right things only for it to have ‘failed’.
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Old 24th February 2019, 11:45 AM   #822 (permalink)
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Having gone back through some of the pics it looks like Toni's car wasn't really prepped properly before any products were applied. It appears it was just brushed down then POR15 applied over the top- really does need to be taken back to metal and prepped properly. When you just apply over the top as has been done here the rust will come through

Such a shame as so much has been spent doing it
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Old 24th February 2019, 12:06 PM   #823 (permalink)
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Is the owner of ‘The Borg’ still on here? That restoration must’ve been nearly ten years ago now, be interested to see his underside. If he’s driven it that is.

The R33 BORG was in with Zealou5 a few months ago for a Strut Top job.

https://www.zealou5.com/blog/2017/3/...op-restoration


Not sure as to the condition of the rest of the car.....
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Old 24th February 2019, 12:49 PM   #824 (permalink)
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Having gone back through some of the pics it looks like Toni's car wasn't really prepped properly before any products were applied. It appears it was just brushed down then POR15 applied over the top- really does need to be taken back to metal and prepped properly. When you just apply over the top as has been done here the rust will come through

Such a shame as so much has been spent doing it
It was taken back and treated then POR15 applied. I simply haven’t put up all th photos. I don’t think it’s sufficient though. Basically I wouldn’t do it this way again.

It’s not bad as I said, I just kind of expected it not to be rusting, again!
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Old 24th February 2019, 02:14 PM   #825 (permalink)
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The R33 BORG was in with Zealou5 a few months ago for a Strut Top job.

https://www.zealou5.com/blog/2017/3/...op-restoration


Not sure as to the condition of the rest of the car.....
that is a shock. One of the biggest restoration projects on here wasn’t it?
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Old 24th February 2019, 03:32 PM   #826 (permalink)
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I think even if you’ve had a car ‘restored’ you have to assume it’s an ongoing process unfortunately.
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Old 24th February 2019, 07:00 PM   #827 (permalink)
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Hmmmm....That's a real sticky can of worms and frighteningly grey area Mook!

True Restorations are when you take back a vehicle to its absolute original condition as made by the manufacturer when it was brand spanking new.
I disagree on this one. On restorations it is easiest to say, put back to original.

Restorations arent simple as that.
While restoring cars there are possibiities where you are allowed, and can make better then new.
Also there are some parts on the car where you can do whatever you want.

Just one example is a jaguar e-type S1 we are restoring at the moment.

To avoid making mistakes i took the JCNA rule book :

https://www.jcna.com/library/concour...nts%20Only.pdf

To keep it short it says :

2. Judge's Posture
Judges are permitted to stand, bend over at the waist, or kneel to inspect judged items.

This basicly defines what the judge will see and rate and what not. This gives you the opportunity to do a decent underfloor protection on the car below the visible line. Still most of the owners will have no underfloor protection, as they see the car as an investment, and want it to stay factory look as much as possible to avoid problems when selling.

I dont think there are clear guide lines on how to restore a skyline at this moment, as it still needs a few years to become a real classic. If it becomes clear you will know what needs to be put back to standard, and what is left to the owner to decide.
The route i would go with a Skyline is enjoy, drive, take care of. If im concerened about future value, stash oem parts to be able to reinstall them if it increases the value in future.

Im sure doing a decent underfloor protection wont lower the value of the car.
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Old 24th February 2019, 07:22 PM   #828 (permalink)
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I think even if you’ve had a car ‘restored’ you have to assume it’s an ongoing process unfortunately.
I tend to disagree with that.

My expectation would be to see some corrosion on fasteners, bracket edges and similar. The reason is they are thin material, and it can allways happen that there was a human error in plating or spraying the protection. That should happen within the first 2 years.

After that i wouldnt want to see any new signs of rust for 10 years, if the job was done right. We have to take into count that materials used for restoration advanced alot in the last 20 years.

If rust happens earlier there is a good chance that standards and rules werent followed. For example a sheet metal was welded but insuficient care was taken to protect the welds from the inside which are hard to get. People dont use a boroscope camera, after waxoiling sills making sure everything is protected etc.

Also if some signs show, which is allways possible my expectation would be for the firm to look into it, see if it is normal or a mistake of the job they did. If its a mistake i would expect them to take care of it free of charge.
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Old 25th February 2019, 09:57 AM   #829 (permalink)
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I tend to disagree with that.

My expectation would be to see some corrosion on fasteners, bracket edges and similar. The reason is they are thin material, and it can allways happen that there was a human error in plating or spraying the protection. That should happen within the first 2 years.

After that i wouldnt want to see any new signs of rust for 10 years, if the job was done right. We have to take into count that materials used for restoration advanced alot in the last 20 years.

If rust happens earlier there is a good chance that standards and rules werent followed. For example a sheet metal was welded but insuficient care was taken to protect the welds from the inside which are hard to get. People dont use a boroscope camera, after waxoiling sills making sure everything is protected etc.

Also if some signs show, which is allways possible my expectation would be for the firm to look into it, see if it is normal or a mistake of the job they did. If its a mistake i would expect them to take care of it free of charge.
Where did these guys go wrong? - https://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/113131-r...ilds-borg.html

Less than ten years later and it was in for strut top repairs...again. Sadly all of the photos have dissapeared from the thread but i remember it being the most meticulous restoration i had ever seen. Rob isn't known for cutting corners or doing a 'bodge-job' either. It seems no matter how much money you throw at these cars the rust just keeps coming back.
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Old 25th February 2019, 11:02 AM   #830 (permalink)
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He didnt cut the struts open to have a look, and from the outside they looked ok.
He told the owner about some additional expense (struts), and the owner didnt want to know about it already paying to much in total for the project.
There are a dozen scenarios that could have happened, and all are unimportant. They can lead you to wrong conclusions.

Most important thing about this type of work is a torough initial conversation. Which from my expirience isnt to popular, as a owner wants to hear what he wants to hear.
If he doesnt hear what he expected, there is a good chance he will take his job elsewhere, which of course is ok. We know this to good in situations where we sell, not where we are costumers and own Skylines.

After that it is meeting the expectations. At this stage some firms decide to go with a low estimate, they promisse, they make it simple, they dont discuss detail, they dont talk about expectations, and adjust pricing to those expectations.

After that, there are 2 possible routes.

a) they meet the owners expectations but it often costs double then quoted
b) they adjust everything to the initial budget and everyone is unhappy about the end result, work and profit.

Since it is a open market, low estimates give you a possibility to accumalate work, and it is hard not to give in to such tactics. Out of this strategy you sometimes work without profit, you lower your standard to meet delivery dates or pressure from the owner etc. In a long run this type of bussines wont last forever as it is not on healthy foundations.

Handing out realistic estimates, if you arent already the top place to do such jobs, will lower the rate you get a contract from 70% success to 20% success, so you have to stick up with it. What you get in return is less stress while working, less pressure from owners, less change from the initial estimate, maybe 10-20%, with photos, documented (unforseen work), and you are allways able to work to this high standard you defined with your pricing.

Every job and people doing it are similar. Its up to the owner to decide which style suits him better and jump on that train. Its to bad that we as consumers jump on to many offers that are to good to be true.
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:28 PM   #831 (permalink)
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Yes but that wasn't me. I made it very clear there was no budget and I wanted the best done for the car that I could. I didn't go with where I went because they were cheaper, far from it.
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Old 25th February 2019, 04:25 PM   #832 (permalink)
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so, out of curiousity, assuming a car has been taken back to bare metal, acid treated or whatever it is, then the protection applied correctly, what sort of "life" should that have on a car being used on a regular basis?
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Old 26th February 2019, 08:06 AM   #833 (permalink)
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Yes but that wasn't me. I made it very clear there was no budget and I wanted the best done for the car that I could. I didn't go with where I went because they were cheaper, far from it.
Wasnt pointing at you Tony, im watching your threads and know your standards. I just got carried away explaining why such jobs fail

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so, out of curiousity, assuming a car has been taken back to bare metal, acid treated or whatever it is, then the protection applied correctly, what sort of "life" should that have on a car being used on a regular basis?
You know its hard to say, and noone knows for sure. If i had to do some pubtalk i would say life expectancy of a car is 15-20 years from new. When restored this would be reset to zero. I would expect another 20 years + if the job is done right, and the car is used dialy. Within this 20 years there could be some signs, but there shouldnt be any major repairs, if its not human error. After this additional 20 years of use i would expect the car to be in a much better state then it was when 20 years old.

When repairing a shell it is a smart thing giving it to a specialist, someone that really has expirience with those types of cars. Most of the shells have rust because of design flaws or lack of protection. Someone with expirience will get all the work done and take care of all additional spots that could make trouble in the future.

Like said before rust after a restoration if a car is seam sealed and protected as it should be, waxoiled and welds protected should hold a long time. Also you have to be carefull that all bodywork is done right, that the shell is able to "breathe" meaning you didnt make some pockets while repairing, that are suitable for moisture to build up from inside and start the process again.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:48 AM   #834 (permalink)
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^^ out of curiosity how long have you been in this line of business?
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:51 AM   #835 (permalink)
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4 years.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:03 PM   #836 (permalink)
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Was hoping you had a portfolio going back 10+ years to see how it’s done.
It’s always a grey area when you have customers asking for estimates etc rather than a realistic figure of what costs are likely to be. And I understand some businesses will adapt their quality of work to suit these ‘estimates’ they give. But from a couple of examples on this thread the work appears not to have been done properly or that the rust is always going to prey on these cars no matter what’s been done to them.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:46 PM   #837 (permalink)
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I understand, but the expirience doesnt only come from the years you are in the business it also comes from the employees. Most of people that are into body restorations and metalshaping are between 50 and 60 years old, bin 20-30 years in business. When talking what works or how long it holds you are talking out of their expirience. Also you gain expirience out of project cars, as you work on 50's 60' 70's cars you see how much they detoriorate in those 50-60 years, you see how a design flow holds after 40 years and what it did to the body etc.
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Old 26th February 2019, 01:26 PM   #838 (permalink)
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any truth in the rumours that some Skylines were made of recycled steel? Would that be a factor in rust returning despite the best efforts?
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Old 2nd March 2019, 09:18 AM   #839 (permalink)
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That was rumoured about Mercedes in the mid-nineties to early 2000's where you will see some Merc's within that period seem to be quite rusty.
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Old 4th March 2019, 03:40 PM   #840 (permalink)
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I can't see how it would make a difference. Surely it's the specification of the metal that's key here rather than the source?
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