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Old 22nd August 2013, 05:38 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Harnesses

Has anyone fitted a harness that is easily removable to the points behind the seat? Which harness did you use if so...?
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Old 22nd August 2013, 07:26 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Has anyone fitted a harness that is easily removable to the points behind the seat? Which harness did you use if so...?
Tony I would not unless you fitting a cage...Liam Doran said when he rolled his at the Ring if he had had harness's on he would have been brown bread as he did not have a cage.

Are you going to come to PGT track day?
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Old 22nd August 2013, 09:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Not sure that's right really.

Take the Stradale for instance - harnesses without cage. Lots of cars just have a roll bar and nothing more.

No intention of rolling it either! I just find the CG-Lock hurts after a while.

What PGT trackday?
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Old 22nd August 2013, 09:23 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Tony, theory is that harnesses should not be anchored unless to a correct height cross bar, such as in a cage.

If anchored to lower rear seat belt points, in a crash there is a substantial vertical components of the tension which when the forces are what they are due to a crash can crush your spine like a cardboard box.

Unless you can anchor high up, I wouldn't bother.

I filed a patent on a bolt in roll cage once for a police accident investigator who had a lot of experience of fatal collisions. He made those things for exactly that reason.
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Old 22nd August 2013, 12:18 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Has no one come up with a harness bar for GTRs?
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Old 22nd August 2013, 12:18 PM   #6 (permalink)
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It's for two reasons, one is the spinal compression risk that Adam has mentioned unless the shoulder belts are at the right angle, but what Liam was referring to was the fact his roof got crushed in and if he'd been harnessed into the seat upright...

That being said, I think there are a few bolt-in half cages for the rear half of the cabin that would solve both issues, but at the cost of losing the use of the rear seats obviously.
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Old 22nd August 2013, 01:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Adam - Schroth have been making TUV approved harnesses for years that clip in the rear seat belts. Harness belts can be angled provided they don't exceed a certain angle.

Let's not get mixed up between what a roll cage does and what a harness does.

Harnesses on a cage or bar are always going to be better because no vertical force is exerted on the seat - but it is not the only way a harness can safely be mounted.

I seem to think from memory it was 45 degrees maximum. A removable harness bar would be an option and there are some about (Sparco I think). Another would be an install through the parcel shelf to a bar in the boot. I don't know how high up the points behind the seat are - just that there are some.

A harness without a cage is a risk - but so is going on a track day full stop. Whether it is a greater risk or not depends on the circumstance of incident.

I'd like to keep it on topic and get an answer to my question. The rest is my choice and with my experience and I am acutely aware of the risks.

Iain said he had fitted several and they were absolutely fine. Just trying to find out if it is any one here. I certainly don't want to lose the rear seats.
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Old 22nd August 2013, 01:33 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Does anyone actually have concrete proof of a person dying in a car that's rolled, with no roll bar and harnesses fitted, and that they only died because of the harnesses?

Theory is one thing. Fact is another, and stories on the tinterneb are on a completely different level!
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Old 22nd August 2013, 01:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The inventor of the bolt in roll cage patent that I filed told me many stories of the carnage he had to deal with in crash investigation.

Biggest dangers he warned me about were use of rollcages without a crash helmet. That's why he developed the invention.

He had seen several deaths due to that.

Harnesses alone, not so sure, but incorrect angling of the strap is well documented in motorsport and is integral to fia regulations i believe.
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Old 22nd August 2013, 02:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I use a harness on the track. The shoulder straps are bolted to the rear seat mounting points.

The MSA regs specify + or - 10 Deg from horizontal as being "preferred" and up to 45 Deg as being "acceptable.

I have never measured but by eye it's close to 45 Deg, so could be either way but has never been questioned.

I honestly do not know the relative merits of this v the standard lap & diagonal in a crash? What I do know is that I much prefer being firmly held in the seat when on track.


Rich
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Old 22nd August 2013, 02:55 PM   #11 (permalink)
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CG Lock as an alternative?
Cheap and keeps your butt in place

Welcome - CG-Lock EU - enhancing safety and enjoyment of your vehicle
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Old 22nd August 2013, 03:07 PM   #12 (permalink)
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CG Lock as an alternative?
Cheap and keeps your butt in place

Welcome - CG-Lock EU - enhancing safety and enjoyment of your vehicle
Or maybe not?
Quote:
I just find the CG-Lock hurts after a while.
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Old 22nd August 2013, 03:12 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Or maybe not?
Loose a few extra pounds??????
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Old 22nd August 2013, 03:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Blade is not fat, the point he is making is that for it to keep you secure in the seat, it needs to be tight and when that tension only has the lap strap as a purchase to hold you in place it can be very uncomfortable after a while.
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Old 22nd August 2013, 03:34 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Loose a few extra pounds??????
Well, cheeky bastard, I've lost 48 pounds since February and not much left to go (another 12 or so) before I hit my ideal weight. Problem is that the CG lock is only really useful if you don't drive that fast around corners. It doesn't support or brace your upper body so whilst your backside is kept in position in the bends, your upper body can be heading out the seat. Despite a very upright seat to give me support, there is a night-and-day gulf between a harness and a cg-lock that is bigger than the gulf between no cg-lock and a cg-lock. Particularly noticeable if you are tall.

I actually use the CG-Lock always on all cars and have done ever since it was first release (well over 10 years I've had them) and it is great for road driving.

It is better than nothing on track but hardly what I would call "good"
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Old 22nd August 2013, 03:35 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I use a harness on the track. The shoulder straps are bolted to the rear seat mounting points.

The MSA regs specify + or - 10 Deg from horizontal as being "preferred" and up to 45 Deg as being "acceptable.

I have never measured but by eye it's close to 45 Deg, so could be either way but has never been questioned.

I honestly do not know the relative merits of this v the standard lap & diagonal in a crash? What I do know is that I much prefer being firmly held in the seat when on track.


Rich
Finally someone who can help

What harness did you use?
I assume the rear seat still fits ok?
Where did the bolts for the lap belts go?
Who fitted it?

Appreciate the helpful response
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Old 22nd August 2013, 03:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Does anyone actually have concrete proof of a person dying in a car that's rolled, with no roll bar and harnesses fitted, and that they only died because of the harnesses?

Theory is one thing. Fact is another, and stories on the tinterneb are on a completely different level!
The shoulder/lap seat belt is designed to lock you to the seat when you have a major impact, which keeps you the same place a harness does.

The difference might be in the way the seat deforms as it is under tension, but really every accident is so different that you can't make a claim about it at all.

A cage without a helmet - that is dangerous. Far too easy to bash your head against a cage. I'd say a cage without a harness and helmet is dangerous too - but only a full cage, not a half cage.

What about fire? That's as likely if not more than rolling.

Realistically, if you have a big one in a GTR on circuit and you are at speed you are probably dead whatever you have in the car.

What about something like a caterham? No Cage, has harnesses - no roof!
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Old 22nd August 2013, 03:43 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamantium View Post
The inventor of the bolt in roll cage patent that I filed told me many stories of the carnage he had to deal with in crash investigation.

Biggest dangers he warned me about were use of rollcages without a crash helmet. That's why he developed the invention.

He had seen several deaths due to that.

Harnesses alone, not so sure, but incorrect angling of the strap is well documented in motorsport and is integral to fia regulations i believe.

Yes but why are you talking about cages when I'm talking about harness without a cage? As you can see it is ok to roughly 45 degrees - and the shallower the angle the better to avoid stress on the seat that can cause a different kind of accident - seats breaking!
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Old 22nd August 2013, 04:00 PM   #19 (permalink)
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It's to avoid stress on your spine, not the seat.

Caterhams have harnesses mounted to a bar secured at shoulder height. No angle.

I mention bolt in cages because the principle reason to have them was to provide a correct height bar for the shoulder straps to bolt to, and secondarily to provide roll protection on track.
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Old 22nd August 2013, 04:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Blade,
Check out Speedware Motorsports.

I have their harness bar, floor plates and 4 point Schroth Enduro harnesses. Their bar is nice as you can unbolt the horizontal cross piece and just leave the two upright pieces in place so that it leaves the rear seats still functional (as functional as they can be, which is not much). The upright sections are out of the way and not very apparent.

I love the Enduros. Very well engineered and easy to use.
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