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Old 9th September 2002, 06:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I KNOW

THE PARTS ON THE CAR INCLUDING THE REAR FINS ARE NOT THERE TO IMPROVE THE 0-60 OR QUARTER TIMES, THEY DEFO CAUSE MUCH MORE DRAG, THAT WASNT WHAT I SAID, YOU MUST HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD, THE FUNCTION OF THEM IS TO INCREASE DRAG AND DOWNFORCE ON THE ROAD AS I DRIVE MY CAR EVERYDAY NORMALLY VERY FAST, THE FACT THAT I TAKE MY CAR IN PARTICULAR TO DRAG DAYS ETC MEANS THAT I DO GET MORE DRAG AND INCREASED TIMES DUE TO THESE PARTS BUT IT GIVES A TRUE READING OF HOW THE CAR PERFORMS ON THE ROAD, I AM NOT TRYING TO KID ANYONE HERE BY SAYING THAT THE PARTS GIVE BETTER TIMES, THAT WOULD BE WHOLEY STUPID AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE A FOOL TO THINK THATS HOW THEY WORK.

I DONT CARE ABOUT WHAT THE CAR SHOULD HAVE OR WHAT MR NISSAN SAYS HE IS FRIGHTENED ABOUT, I AM SURE HE IS EQUALLY AS HORRIFIED BY THE AMOUNT OF ENGINEERING AND SPECIFIC PARTS WHICH ARE FITTED TO THE ENGINE OF THE SKYLINE TO THEN WATCH GARY PUT A 750ISH BHP ENGINE IN THE CAR, COS IT WAS ONLY DESIGNED AT THE FACTORY TO HAVE 280. THE FACT IS WE DONT HAVE 280 BHP, WE HAVE 500+600+700+ BHP AND YOU HAVE THE AERODYNAMICS OF A 280 BHP CAR.

WE ALL DRIVE ABOUT IN MONSTER HP CARS WITH VERY LITTLE CONSIDERATION AS TO THE REST OF THE SUM, HOW DO YOU STICK 700HP TO THE ROAD, ITS EVEN MORE THAN THEY RUN ON THE TRACK LET ALONE THE M25.

REGARDLESS OF WIND TESTING, I HAVE HAD THEM ON MY CAR AND THE HAVE BEEN FURTHER DEVELOPED TO INCREASE THIER PERFORMANCE, THEY WORK, I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I HAVE DONE ABOUT 5000 MILES WITH THE NEW DIFFUSER AND FINS ON, ATTENDED A COUPLE OF TRACK DAYS WITH THEM AND ALMOST DAILY GET IN MY CAR AND USE IT VERY HARD TO THE KIND OF SPEEDS WHERE MODIFICATIONS BEGIN TO BECOME A FACTOR, NOT JUST THE ODD BLAST ON THE WAY TO AND FROM A MEET AS SOME OWNERS CARS GET ( THATS NOT POINTING AT YOU BTW ).

I DONT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING HERE, IF YOU DONT LIKE THEM, I CANT HELP THAT, JUST MOVE OVER WHEN I COME UP ON YOU ON THE ROAD AND TRACK AND YOU ARE WONDERING WHY. ITS NOT COS I DRIVE LIKE A LOONY, ITS COS THE CAR IS SETUP TO RUN FAST AND THE PARTS MAKE IT DO THAT MUCH SAFER.
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Old 9th September 2002, 06:34 PM   #22 (permalink)
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JOHN

READ MY EARLIER POST, I GOT TO HAVE A COUPLE OF NICE TOUCHES FOR THE SAKE OF LOOKS

GLEN - THANKS FOR THE OFFER BUT I DIDNT NEED IT IN THE END.

WHAT COOLING EFFECTS HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED THEN THRU YOUR BONNET, WHAT YOU TALKING, INLET TEMPS, WATER TEMPS, OIL TEMPS, GENERAL ENGINE TEMPS?
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Old 9th September 2002, 07:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Aerodynamic debate

Boys,

more ideas for you to think about,

1. the debate about the rear wing hieght

1a, Andy,s car
yes your wing is higher so it should give
more downforce but it will also give more
drag, as you said you do not drive at 150 mph
every day you spend more time at 70/125 mph
so you do not care , why do you not run a 6/10 mm
guerney flap on your wing , it will provide the same
downforce but no more drag, you will notice these
on all race cars .

1b, Glens car
I chose the do-luck wing supports because I felt
it would be more efficent to move the rear wing
down and back so it decrease the drag but gives
the wing more leverage to provide the downforce
and also it moves the wing to an area were the
air is less "angry" i.e the air is "stuck" to the roof
so in my opinon it will not flow over andy,s wing
but will pass over glens wing as it is in line with
rear boot and hangs over the back off the car.


When we did some work in the wind tunnel with the "dive
planes" as DCD showed us on some pictures these are
very inefficent in a side wind and when you are turning in
to corner i.e 1 dive plane is advanced in the air . Also dive
planes only give readible downforce when they have quite
high stakes i.e they have a high wall on the outside to trap
the air on the dive plane.

The bonnet on Glens car has been recorded lowering the
engine temperature by 5/6 centigrade but also lowering
the under bonnet temp by up to 15 centigrade. and it looks
very good.


Full under body floors -, where does the air go that goes
through the bonnet in to thin air !!!!!!!!! . the under
floor aerodynamics including flat floors are a black art ,
I have seen many wing,s floors,diffusers,etc run for 5
minutes in the tunnel and then crushed or cut up.


Andy ,
I can book the tunnel at MIRA, best to go at night
about 25% chaeper I share the cost with you we will
learn a lot in 2/3 hours.



Mark
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Old 9th September 2002, 09:51 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Bonnet

Dirk.

I have myself no hard figures re temps, air flow, pressures etc., but I can rest assured that this bonnet hasn't just got some cut-outs or vents stuck in it/on it. The bonnet was damn expensive but R&D/Performance doesn't come cheap. Just check out the MIRA prices to confirm that. The bonnet I have on my car is the same that I saw in the Top Secret pit on their car at the NISMO Festival last year. Good enough for me.

I have also invested in the Top Secret Front Diffuser/Splitter for the same reasons.

Also you may want to ask Mark when you see him next time why their are 3 'subtle' vents cut into the lower part of my rear bumper .

See Ya.

glen
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Old 9th September 2002, 10:08 PM   #25 (permalink)
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The greatest problem suffered by road cars is the flow just aft of the drivers door on our Coupes, if you have that nice front on the car you are creating a high speed flow under the car, this will create a slight negative pressure zone almost exactly under your elbow as it rest on the transmission tunnel arm rest. At first this sounds great, but it is not, it won't suck the car down to the road, it will find it easier to suck the air in from the side in that zone between the front and rear wheels than suck a car weighng 1½ tons closer to the road.

This problem is well known and usually, on cars that are 'stable' as Mark described, side skirts are added and these must damn near scrape the ground, for a road car this just won't work, we have to accept a compromise, the best compromise seems to be the 'twin flow' theory.

This works in the following manner; measure the distance from one side of the car from sill to sill, where on the sill is important, you measure from the point where the sill is closest to the gound ecluding the the jacking 'swage'. measure this to the nearest half inch, the divide this figure by 6, so say the number is 54" divide by 6 and you get 9", this number is key to the correct working of twin flow, now imagine a line thru the centre of the car from front to rear, if you measure 9" each side of this line this is where the new skirt has to go, it must run from another imaginary line drawn thru the front hubs as far back as the centreline of another imaginary line also drawn across the car in the centre of the rear hubs, this dictates the ideal length of the 2 skirts to be fitted, you have a bit of lee-way but not alot, 6" each end maybe.

so now when the car has that 100 mm of movement at the wheel we have reduced it to just 30mm. at the skirts, the skirts them selves with have an awful life, road humps, dirt, grounding, high speeds and so finding a suitable material for my car was difficult, but in the end, the most robust and simple solution was.........
.....
.....
Road sweeper brushes!
Dense long lengths of Polypropylene 1" wide and 8' long and 6" deep, bonded to a 1" square nylon rail.

The depth of these skirts is important, one if they are too long then they drag on the ground as the car is sucked to the road at speed, if they are too short they are useless, I will now divulge a little known piece of aerodynamicists knowledge, when the air tries to rush under the car in that space between the front wheel and the rear wheel unless you are travelling in excess of 350kmh it will squeeze under the car in the top 2/3s' of that space leaving the 1/3 nearest the road relatively undisturbed, simply if the distance from the road to the sill is 6" then the 2" nearest the road is not disturbed by this particular troublesome flow from the flanks of the car to the underside of it, this phenomena falls apart at about 9" from road to sill and the flow then becomes chaotic.

So once the bristles have been placed in the correct line with the correct length longways down the car, you can then trim them so they leave that 1/3 of the ground to sill height you have measured.

The above is just one quarter of what has to be done to gain ground effects on saloon cars, the remaining 3 parts are;
2, how to deflect the flank/underbody flow on each side of the car.
3, how to actually engender a venturi effect front skirt on a standard height Road car.
4, how to design a real rear diffuser that will complinet the work done on the Skirts.

I will tell you now there is a lot of work for me in finding ways to explain these things in a manner that uses no formula and is understandable and with all the reference checking, even the above took a couple of hours, if I am wasting my time and this is only of passing interest, then please stop me. A simple 'No' posting will do, if there are no 'No's' by 10pm tomorrow I'll carry on.

Mycroft.
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Old 9th September 2002, 10:51 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Mycroft,

I for one find this very interesting and look forward to the next installment...

cheers

Steve
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Old 9th September 2002, 11:27 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Mycroft

Please continue !

Andre.
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Old 10th September 2002, 02:47 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Hmm

Lots more info to look thru, was writing my last post when my pager went off and I have just got back from saving a couple of morons on a cruiser in the north sea, still...

Glen, your back bumper holes, I was told that Mark backed your car into something in his workshop and instead of painting you set about cutting holes in it, not p1ss taking, thats what I heard.

Mark, yes interesting, we will be doing some testing of our new developments when they are finished, probably in the new year, will let you know how we get on. Glens bonnet, what temps do you mean, water?, Oil? did you do these tests for temp or is that what TS say should happen to the temps, have you actually noticed on the MFD that temps are lower, if so what are the temps for water and oil? When did you test the under bonnet temps? did you do a before and after?

Mycroft, keep it coming, I for one rarely get the time to delv deep into books and so if you offering to do this, great, fire away, makes easy reading of the good bits for everyone.
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Old 10th September 2002, 03:55 AM   #29 (permalink)
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i wanna know i wanna know

keep it coming Mycroft

LL
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Old 10th September 2002, 07:32 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Rear Bumper Holes

Andy,
you are correct I did damage Glens bumper , but the holes are to stop the rear bumper becoming a parachute a lot of air runs over the diffuser and is caught up in the rear bumper the holes let the air out so reducing the drag ,look at any GT coupe race car
i.e the old Porsche GT1 or the "flying" merc at LE-MANS they all
have vents behind the wheels and in the rear valance. I just thought as I was going to have to paint the bumper on "my"
car I wouild do some good to the aerodynamics.
Mycroft totally agree with the side skirts just a little to complicated better to spend some time on front splitter and rear wing/guerney less chance to damage aero device. When do you want to come and use my new "TOY" .
On the under bonnet temps were done on the road using the datalogging part on the MFD2 as I said the water temp was reduced by 5/6 degree centigrade but more importantly the under bonnet temp by 15 degree centigrade we recorded this by re-wiring the inlet charge temp sender to re temp at the back of the engine bay and recording it on the MFD2.


Mark

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Old 10th September 2002, 09:07 AM   #31 (permalink)
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What Mark says about putting holes in the rear bumper valance is totally correct if the Skyline is like the Soarer! A couple of good sized holes to allow the air in there to escape makes a huge difference even without the diffuser.

I have designed an under plate for my car that is aerodynamically 'neutral' in an effort to avoid drilling holes but I needed time in a wind tunnel to get it right, just a few holes with a simple grill over the hole does the same task without recourse to huge costs, I applaud you Mark.

This has the makings of a good thread, can I ask a favour of Cem/Guy/Tokyo would it be possible for one of you to open a new thread and copy/transfer/whatever the relevent aerodynamic stuff to it, this will allow members to find this info readily, any title mentioning Aerodynamics will be good enough, this will allow the discussion that Weka started to continue without it having been hi-jacked by the nerds The new thread can still function for everyone to post anything on it, but will allow those who actively want the info to 'cut to the chase'.

If its a hassle, then fine.
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Old 10th September 2002, 09:09 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Dirk's Fins and

Do you have any data from a particular Track, or even roads around your house, with the Fins/Wing Extenders on and off.

I remember you saying to me that the fins on your car were scrapping on the road sometimes and that the next set you got made would be shorter. What if any are the differences/effects on the cars between the length of the Fins and is their any effect if the car/s are lower/lowered. Bet your phone bills gonna be expensive today .

All interesting stuff this and can't wait for another page from Mycroft .

See Ya.

glen
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Old 10th September 2002, 12:38 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Lots more......

Mark, Yes, obviously I knew why you cut the holes in the rear bumper it makes sense and that fact that the bumper was damaged gives you a good excuse to set about it with a hacksaw to get the air out that gets trapped and causes drag, cheap worthy mods are sometimes worth the time and effort for that little bit extra which is how this whole thread started. So what temps does the MFD show now then for Water and Oil at say 100mph cruising compared with before and at what speeds/use did you measure these temps?

Glen,

No, I dont have specifics about times etc gained by our fins, I set out to do this at Bedford the last time but was unfortunately back flagged both times I went out for noise so couldnt open up the car properly as I normally would but found it very easy to sit on peoples bumpers round corners, watching them fishtail and run loose whilst having complete control of my car with a feeling of ' yeh, get control, move out my way' and thats not being cocky just brought home what the mods we have been playing with had done to the car, but I am sure Weka will shed some light on the better handling capabilities he gains when he uses his car properly with the new fins, you can actually feel the difference at very high speeds. You will remember my recent speeding event on the M20 when I got caught, This was the night we fitted the fins at Garys place and I was on my way home. Off the road I used to have uncertainess at about 150-170 on the clock when moving the car from one side of the road to the other, especially when backing off at the same time, this problem was instantly cured by the fins. Dont forget I have done over 25000 miles in the 18 months I have had this R34 so I had about 13 months without the fins and diffuser to know what it suddenly felt like to firstly put the diffuser on and then change it for larger fins so I have direct comparision to know that it works. As I said before, we are only making 6 sets of fins, I have not interest in trying to sell lots of them by saying they work cos I will only makes those 6 sets which will cover the cost of development for them on my car. Yes they do scrap the floor sometimes when reversing etc because they are quite low however this is essential. The first fins we made ( on my car ) were made from Kevlar and Carbon, the Kevlar sheeting was sandwiched in between the Carbon and when the fins rubbed out they left strings of kevlar hanging down which didnt help and looked a bit scraggley, the new fins are now double sided and thinner and the kevlar is just in the centre of the fins so when they do rub out (which they are designed to do over time ) they maintain their shape and integrity. Also, they are made using very thin material which is still rigid but in the event of damaging the fins they are designed to bend and flex in order that so shock is not transfered further into the main diffuser or boot floor, as with anything carbon, if you hit and stress it hard enough it will break. Obviously the lower the car the faster it will go and the better the aerodynamics will work.

Also, I remember having a conversation with Mark about making a diffuser earlier this year and he said to me that they had already done it but they kept breaking them beacuse of the stress of air pressure which is generated by the diffuser when using carbon, Mark if you still want some, ours are now tried and tested if you are still having difficulties making yours work then get in touch and I will be happy to have more main diffusers made for you and your customers whom enquire about it.

My phone bill today? you lost me there?
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Old 10th September 2002, 02:28 PM   #34 (permalink)
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As this subject is going to be dealt with in more than a little depth and subject to debate I feel that I must ‘flesh out’ the first part of my postings before moving on to the second.

Firstly, I have to assume that we are talking about a ‘standard car’, I know all your cars have been modded in some way, but the principles remain the same just their implementation may be more exacting or involved, so if something isn’t ‘right’ for your car, then say, it maybe that couching the terms differently may just be enough, opposing views or questioning what I write is good as it may also garner that lit bit extra you need to take the plunge. It is even more important that you know I drive a Soarer and my knowledge of the position of Skylines ‘bits’ may be wrong, please, if you spot that, chirp up immediately, we are fortunate that are cars are alike in format (excepting 4WD) but not that alike.

Second, I need to know for example that you have a vented undertray just in front of your radiator, this is important for Part 3 of this series.

Third, during this time I will occasionally have to ask for answers to simple things like the above, be patient as the answers may delay an instalment as I try to adjust things to suit your car, this might take days!

Now to the first posting, and a little clarification.

These brushes that are positioned just either side of the transmission tunnel would seem at first to be at best only one third as effective as those fitted by various ‘Modders’ that are affixed to the sills, well if all the circumstances were the same then that would be only nearly right, but fitting any ‘standard’ sill with a modders unit will mean it has to have good ground clearance and the brushes look dreadful when in full view, you in fact must look at these brushes as an entity in themselves an additional aid not fitted to any other type of road car, and they are only OK when used with the complete system I’m outlining, on their own without the other parts to gain their full function they just are not worth the effort.

My objective here is simple, I will outline a way that with a little bit of tweaking should provide anyone who decides to undertake this task a way of generating additional down force evenly over the entire car therefore not upsetting the balance you have achieved already and without the call for additional huge wings or bodykits. The tweaking will be done to balance the entire car with the last item on our list, the diffuser/underwing.

Now everyone will tell you that you can’t do this without serious time in a wind tunnel and they are for the most part correct, but I will not deal at all with any Aerodynamic aid that is in ‘free air’, i.e. on top surfaces, these are where you need a wind tunnel and are out of reach without Tunnel time. The air that has a degree of confinement is what we can do and to quite a good extent the flow on the lower flank behaves in a very uniform manner and can be controlled fairly effectively, so draw line from just below the front headlights to the underside of the rear indicator/reversing light, and that is our limit, above that line all bets are off.
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Old 10th September 2002, 05:35 PM   #35 (permalink)
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No specifics on the fins then Dirk

Thats OK.

Glad you understand the concept of the rear bumper vents now and you never know we may see them on your car in the future .

My bumper was due to have the vents put in around the same time my diffuser came back but got bought forward due to Marks driving .

Re the phone, don't worry about it, it went straight over your head, Bless .

Anyway I'm gonna keep off this subject now and leave it to the people who know. Mycroft and Mark, and anyone else who knows what they are talking about, the stage is yours. Am looking forward to this.

See Ya.

glen
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Old 10th September 2002, 05:59 PM   #36 (permalink)
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No

thats right, no specifics, they work, end of.. on that one, I have explained in depth the reason and how and why, if you are still unsure, I'll get you some made.

I'll take a raincheck on the rear bumper vents thanks, maybe cut it about though to fit a towbar on, may try and take Martin Hadlands glory away from him by towing a caravan next year at over 130mph. I already understood the concept about the vents, just cos someone tells me its Tuesday dont mean I didnt know it already

If mycrofts posts about this are half as interesting as the octain booster, this should be an interesting subject.
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Old 10th September 2002, 06:01 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I have to agree...

with Andy about the stability at high speed as when my car was pulling and showing ?mph I saw a lorry start to pull out in the distance. Iwas on a long slight bend at the time and I gradualy tried to carry on accelerating into the next lane but started shi**ing myself and let off. I can quite imagine that these fins would have given me more confidence to carry on.
This was done on runway next to the m25 between j9 and 8... dunno how the lorry got on there

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Old 10th September 2002, 11:03 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Part 2.

or 'How to give your car car 'sidies' like the Diggler dude'

Now, we have those bits under our cars and we have to deal with the rest of each side of the car, we'll begin just behind the front wheel, for it is here that the trouble starts that beautiful crafted wheel and expensive tyre are great for gipping the road, but for controlling airflow they are hopeless, and many of us run 8,9 even 10 inch wide spinners!

We have to get rid of that air, we have no chance of taming it, so the first thing is to visit your nearest SAAB dealer, no, you don't want to use their toilet, you want to talk to their spares man and you ask for a pair of underbody trimmers from a '93' or similar. I forget now the biggest but you want them, tell them its your wifes car/ tasteless boyfriends car, whatever but don't buy the fixing mechanism, its expensive and useless for us. if you are lucky they will have them, I paid £18.

Now you fix these to the underside of the car, they must be fitted so as the end innermost is about 3" in-board of the inside edge of the tyre when straight ahead and a few inches behind, mine fitted in a spot nicely, which was a bit of a compromise but an easy fit, in the tunnel this made only a marginal difference to the ideal, but moving the whole thing 'out toward the edges was not at all good, so even with a little bit of compromising, kept it as close to 3" in-board as you can, now you set the angle of it, this is the angle as if viewing the car on plan, ie looking down on it from above, unfortunately the angle is very critical, but is not very car specific the same angle fits all, this angle is 145degrees from that previously mentioned imaginary line down the centre of the car, for simplicity, imagine a clock the nose of the car points at the 12, the boot is at 6, drivers door at 3, the rake of those is at just before 5, get these trimmers right and the air behind that tyre will spill out the side, get it wrong and the air will congest under the drivers door and generate lift! the trimmers do not need to come right out from underneath looking like a second mud flap, it can remain discrete and so long is it passes the half mark on the width of your tyres it will work perfectly, if you do allow it to extend say to the jacking point swage line, then you will certainly generate a vortex and again give yourself an unwanted problem, you will notice the trimmer is quite supple, this is fine, it is designed to fold back at very high speed what most people are unaware of about cars travelling at speed is that upto 100/120mph the tyre is a pain, but after that speed in an enclosed body is will in itself generate some negative pressure in its wake, the reasons are fiendishly difficult to relate so I ain't gonna bother, with the trimmer so close to the wheel it will help in generating this zone so although it maybe swept back at 135mph it is actually working perfectly. Cut the trimmer to fit BUT make sure you copy the radius of the end you have lopped of accurately and its angle, mark each trimmers new cut line with the others leading edge to ensure this and get it right.

We have now swept aside (literally) a huge amount of turbulent air and created a low pressure zone from the leading edge of the door all the way to the rear wheel arch, fantastic...err...no. we have created it but that air that is coursing down the flank of the car is chilled and is of a higher pressure than the air underneath it wants to occupy that space.

In your minds eye picture the tail plane of Concorde, hold that image, and place it on the side of your car, mould the trailing edge to the shape of the rear wheel arch just behind the door, cut it off along that imaginery line from under the the front lights to under the rear lights, now mould the leading edge of that tailplane to the shape of the trailing edge of the door, pullit back about 40mm, now the extend the root of the tailplane along the sill until it is about 10" past the trailing edge of the door. Work with me here, now smooth this shape out, imagine a woman lying face down with her bum in the air, come on, it ain't that difficult is it?, run your hand from the highest point on her bum down her back along her spine, isn't that a lovely curve, a beautiful sweeping line, now if you can stop daydreaming and I haven't lost you to the porn sites we'll continue, the reason for this shape is 1, it is wonderful, 2 it is functional, more of that later.

This is where diggler rears his ugly head, well, his sidies anyway, we have this flat plate that is shaped to the rear wheel arch leading edge and extends along the car for something near 2 feet and is shaped, well, you know what it is shaped like on its leading edge, it folds under the car and fixes to the sill so that any air caught in the 'sandwich' cannot slip under the car, the sexy leading edge must be 30mm away from the bodywork and the at least 20mm at the wheel arch, it has to be fixed to the wheel arch by VERY VERY strong tags, as the forses this will have to endure will be immense, and that is where the sexy shape helps, that leading edge will be subject to serious buffeting so now think of this whole thing in carbon fibre, reinforced carbon fibre, in a single bound we have gone from sexy shapes to Digglers sidies.

Now I know some of you like carbon fibre, well I don't, but this single mod works on any car straight out of the box, without exception, you can fit it alone and you gain a real tangible benefit from the moment its fitted, on a 34 with its more angular shape you could sape it to be a bit more angular and it would look simply bloody brilliant, look at Cems car and add an angular side wing, it would look fantastic to my eyes a finishing touch and I don't even like carbon fibre! Those of you with a little time could probably do a 'photoshop' job on Cems car with these on, but for gawds sake don't show them to him, he'll be spending again.


OK we now have all the conditions right for the main body of the car, we will next deal with the start of it all, the front end.


I will not post part 3 until I am certain that any questions about the design so far are answered, so a Friday/saturday posting would seem a good next installment time.

I'll try to answer what I can, those with thoughts on improvements speak up.

Thanks for your time.
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Old 11th September 2002, 12:59 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Second, I need to know for example that you have a vented undertray just in front of your radiator, this is important for Part 3 of this series.
There are no undertrays on 33's, only a plastic sump cover aft of the rad.
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Old 11th September 2002, 01:08 AM   #40 (permalink)
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So if i were to lay on the ground and look stright up just behind the front 'bumper' I would see........
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