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Old 11th September 2002, 01:10 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Hang on there a sec, I'll go and take a piccie!
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Old 11th September 2002, 01:33 AM   #42 (permalink)
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From the front, inner slope of front splitter, IC, dump return pipe, bottom of rad then sump tray....

Got a great picture here but I can't see how you attach pictures any more, where's that option disappeared to?
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Old 11th September 2002, 01:36 AM   #43 (permalink)
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OK, the picture will be good but I've got the idea, gonna get some Zzzzzs' and think about this tomorrow, thanks Mate.
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Old 11th September 2002, 12:56 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Absolutley fantastic thread. My head hurts.
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Old 11th September 2002, 01:01 PM   #45 (permalink)
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pic

Peter,

If you mail me the pic I can host it and stick it up here if you like.
It might help some of us understand that next installment!

Lee
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Old 11th September 2002, 01:50 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Rear Diffuser etc

Andy.

A very good friend off mine has sent me this message and I thought you might
like to read it:


Hello Mark

I have had a look at that aerodynamics thread, very interesting. I would agree with your comments. I simply cannot believe that anyone can tell the difference between running the car with or without the diffuser and you can post this if you want. I reckon that the rear diffuser is producing less that 20kg of downforce at 70mph. I mean the Ferrari Enzo (which you would have to agree has pretty sorted aero) produces a little over 100kg from the
front+rear at that speed. So if you take the 20kg, losses through the "soft" suspension, it probably equates to say 10kgs. Thus you have a whole 5kg of extra force pushing the tyre in to the road.

To put this into perspective, if he is pulling 0.5g through a corner then the loaded tyre will be seeing approx 500 kgs of load from the mass of the car + load transfer, so if anyone can detect a 1% change in tyre loading through a corner s**t, they should be a test driver for a Formula 1 Team.


Just to say he works for a certain formula 1 team that is in a bad way at
the moment.

Mark Gillam
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Old 11th September 2002, 02:03 PM   #47 (permalink)
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The man is right but that is only part of the picture, smoother flow gains stability, and that can mean although there may only be 20 kgs down force from one design, it effect may be disproportionate to that lowly figure.

Turbulent air flow may make the car unstable at certain speeds which will completely disappear with a simple mod, I give you this factual example;

The original jelly mould Sierra had a serious handling problem at 70+mph, which was turblence induced, it foxed all the smart guys at Ford, until a chap called Uwe Johansson designed a simple boomerang shaped moulding for the rear pillar (look at the early models) it is just 42mm long, sits just 5mm proud of the body and weighs 20grams, the problem disappeared 'til 115mph.
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Old 11th September 2002, 02:07 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Question What happened after 115mph then

glen
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Old 11th September 2002, 02:09 PM   #49 (permalink)
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they couldn't go any faster
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Old 11th September 2002, 02:23 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Talking Oh OK

glen
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Old 11th September 2002, 04:34 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Re: pic

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee_Pendlebury
Peter,

If you mail me the pic I can host it and stick it up here if you like.
It might help some of us understand that next installment!

Lee
Lee,

Just mailed you with the picture. It was taken at 1.00am so not the best quality but gives a general idea of what's going on underneath.

Thanks.

Peter.
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Old 11th September 2002, 04:56 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Mycroft,

I have comprehended the first deflector behind the front wheel arch.

The second I am having trouble seeing in my minds eye.

would it be possible to take a simple top view picture of a car and draw the lines on that you are talking about for concordes tailplane and the girls back. ?

Just a simple box drawing of a car would be fine so that I can look at this whilst reding the excellent info.

I have no background in aerodynamics and have never played about with airflows under cars so sorry if I seem a bit or a lot thick..


Mark, I believe that Andy was talking about the general feeling of the rear end of the car feeling more "locked in " on bends than just having the wheels on the ground harder.

These fins must act like a tail fin on a plane in that they straighten the airflow out of the back thus making the car want to drive straight. this would cancel out some of the oscillations that you feel at speed and let the Hicass do it's job better, or am I way off ?

cheers
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Old 11th September 2002, 05:00 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Aero

Steve,
aerodynamic is a black art , just look at the F1 boys covering
over there wings between runs.

My friend is a aero man at a F1 team.

Mark
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Old 11th September 2002, 05:07 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Steve, I'm gonna grab Cems car from one of his posts and although I have never used 'Photoshop' I'm gonna give it a go.

This should be bloody hilarious!
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Old 11th September 2002, 05:12 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Mycroft, LOL I look forward to the efforts, if all else fails a simple line drawing on sketch pad would suffice..

Mark,

tell me about it, that is why us mortals know so little, but I got the impression that Andy had noticed the car felt more stable not that there felt like there was more down force.

I don't doubt anyones knowledge here and working as an aerodynamicist for an F1 team puts the guy on a big pedastal in my eyes but it just sounded like a misinterpretation of what had been said..

just from my humble viewpoint at least.

I have noticed that my car can feel unstable on certain cambers of bend and I am not good enough to know if that is my driving or a shorfall in the compromise you see in a road car, I will probably never know as I will never get the sort of experience you need to be that good.

the road surface can play a big part of how the car feels on bends as well, even on supposedly good condition roads the hicass sometimes gives the odd jerk one way or the other when it corrects for a manhole cover or imperfection on the roads surface.

This is another reason why racetracks feel/are so much faster than roads I suppose.

/Steve
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Old 11th September 2002, 05:26 PM   #56 (permalink)
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\image{\image}

edit, that worked well didn't it!



I'm not a prat after all, it WAS touch and go for a while!

Sorry about what I've done to your car Cem, a bit of T-cut and it'll be back to how it was.

OK, the 'straight' red line is our boundary, we can't do anything above that line, it's too complex.

The black splodge is what I decribed early, ol' Dirks sidies, the shape was freehand and just an approximation.

If you look at the little grey splodge just behind the front wheel lurking in the shadow under the body, that is all you would see of the trimmer.
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Old 11th September 2002, 05:38 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Oh OK

I hold the steering wheel but I dont know how the car feels at all? You cant agrue with what I have found with our fins, regardless of calculations or who you get technical information from, they work, and maybe I should be a formula 1 test driver, nothing to say I couldnt, I already have plans to race in the Clio cup next year and then in Touring Cars the year after, so one more step to F1 is not unrealistic for the future.

Please do not try to discredit my driving or our parts/products on here, its not very professional, thanks. I have told you already that they work and it would appear that you are trying to convince people otherwise, I dont have to prove anything to you or anyone else, they work and thats that, if you want some call me ( as previously offered ), if you dont, you dont, I know they work and if know one else wants them then thats fine, what cant speak cant lie and I MEAN THIS IS THE BEST POSSIBLE SENSE, I am not looking for arguement or to proven right or wrong, I have said what happens to the car when the are fitted, no one has driven my car to say otherwise which is fine but if they didnt I would say they are just for show and have no effect whatsoever on the cars handling but they do work, as I said before I cant understand why no one has done something like this in the past, its new and requires explaining, I understand that much.

Yes Steve, you are on the right track as to how the car feels

So then, what temps for the bonnet scenario Mark???? OR Glen, what temps do you see when driving now?

This is interesting about aero-d's just please dont turn this into another lets prove Dirk wrong thread cos it doesnt make the board enjoyable for me when I seem to be on trial for everything I say, I dont mind explaining things I have said but I wont be the punchbag for egos. I am very interested in Mycrofts comments, he is fast turning into our board book worm for info, well done.
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Old 11th September 2002, 05:48 PM   #58 (permalink)
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ok heres the pic

Hope it helps



Cheers
Lee
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Old 11th September 2002, 06:33 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Whoa, now this has to be understood here, NO ONE, is to decry the thoughts or experiences of others in this thread, every opinion is valid, without exception, if you have issues, then take time to post your thoughts and step round them, or take them elsewhere, no names, no finger pointing, no hurt pride, NOWT, just what you knowand what you experience. End of.
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Old 11th September 2002, 06:37 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Lee, that picture is perfect, it has told me a great deal about the Skylines apron/aero package, is that from your car or is it peters R33, Cherry Red bits?
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