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View Poll Results: Should Britain leave the EU?
Yes 143 69.08%
No 50 24.15%
Not voting 14 6.76%
Voters: 207. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 22nd June 2016, 10:49 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Given the state of the EU economy's how can you say that staying in makes the most sense? The overall EU is growing at only .9% with several states in the negative.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 11:12 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Our own economy is doing better than most in the EU and we are not tied by currency but multiple trade deals and free moment of goods really helps us.
It makes sense to be part of a bigger consortium of traders as it offers security.
Out of the EU we will have no say in policy etc but will need to trade so we will be like Switzerland .... Paying for the rights but no voice.
It's far from perfect but it suits us on so many levels. It offers employees so many rights. It offers us so many human rights.
I feel safer in Europe not from terrorists etc but from the corruption and brutality of our own government. In the EU they have to follow rules many of which help us the little guy.

Everyone has to vote for what they feel is right for them and their families. If we get it wrong in either direction we all suffer in the future. If we leave there is no going back. If we stay we have to live with it.

I just hope people vote without blinkers. We have changed a lot in the last 30 years. We have lost compassion, our technology has evolved and our government can follow our every move. What are the limits if they have no one to answer too - if a bank gives you a loan you sign terms. Those terms are binding. Our government even with curbs still managed to change all the loan agreements for all student loans retrospectively since 2011 last month and threw out the petition protesting against them. You trust them without the checks and balances of the EU?
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Old 22nd June 2016, 11:18 PM   #183 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by twobadmice View Post
Remain makes the most financial sense short, middle and long term.

I haven't heard one reasonable, sensible or truthful reason to leave.

For many many years the democratic process in the UK is we voted for an MP who represented us in parliament. If we didn't like what they did we voted for someone else next time. Earlier in the year our democratically elected MPs voted in the House of Commons to remain in the EU. This referendum is therefore against our democratic process.

Most of what I have heard from Leave is effectively ignorance or racist. If we leave I expect the UK to get more racist much like the USA. We will also need stronger ties to the US so we get to follow Trump into War.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 05:46 AM   #184 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by twobadmice View Post
Our own economy is doing better than most in the EU and we are not tied by currency but multiple trade deals and free moment of goods really helps us.
It makes sense to be part of a bigger consortium of traders as it offers security.
Out of the EU we will have no say in policy etc but will need to trade so we will be like Switzerland .... Paying for the rights but no voice.
It's far from perfect but it suits us on so many levels. It offers employees so many rights. It offers us so many human rights.
I feel safer in Europe not from terrorists etc but from the corruption and brutality of our own government. In the EU they have to follow rules many of which help us the little guy.

Everyone has to vote for what they feel is right for them and their families. If we get it wrong in either direction we all suffer in the future. If we leave there is no going back. If we stay we have to live with it.

I just hope people vote without blinkers. We have changed a lot in the last 30 years. We have lost compassion, our technology has evolved and our government can follow our every move. What are the limits if they have no one to answer too - if a bank gives you a loan you sign terms. Those terms are binding. Our government even with curbs still managed to change all the loan agreements for all student loans retrospectively since 2011 last month and threw out the petition protesting against them. You trust them without the checks and balances of the EU?
Fear,scared,more fear.FFS grow a pair,believe in ourselves to grow and be strong without being shackled to a failed European project !
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Old 23rd June 2016, 06:49 AM   #185 (permalink)
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When this UK - EU referrendum came to light a few months ago, I thought about it & imagined it would become a huge debate - but in the end the mainstream media "fear machine" would come out to scare people (through their financial security) out of leaving.

Reading a bit of news here & there, a few weeks ago I begun to doubt myself as the leave proportion seemed to be growing larger and wondered if there really could be a leave vote as people in the UK are understandably not entirely happy with the status quo...
Really? Is the UK collectively really that brave to vote overwhelmingly and go it alone into the unknown?

But the fear machine was yet to be rolled out on full throttle a few weeks ago...

All this talk of a close race.... isn't this a common theme with politics these days? Ultimately we invariably see the people come to power that the establishment wanted in the first place (Clinton is their "man" so to speak for the next U.S. president - we'll see...) or in this case a membership to a government led by unelected beaureaucrats in Brussels. It's all just part of the charade, but the EU won't break up unless powerful interests want that and the UK leaving would be the first large chunk toppling from the EU.
So I'm still fairly sure it won't be a leave vote in the end - because ultimately there would be no net benefit to government in power... nor the powerful financial & corporate interests that lobby them.
It's too big a risk for them to take, so they pretty much all want to stay and things tend to go in corporate & financial interests despite what the mainstream media may have us believe.

Cameron got his wrist slapped for letting the EU referrendum develop & take place (Panama Papers) so the indication is the establishment does not approve.

As for the EU government's respect for a member country's choice by referrendum, just look at what happened to Greece after the public said "no" to further austerity.
Horrific.

If we stay - in the end it'll all have been one big charade and a huge distraction + waste of time and money - nothing will have changed as far as EU membership is concerned.
IF we leave, then it's not going to happen overnight either. It'll take years and there will be agreements, concessions, etc. that will probably mean not leaving entirely.

We'll all know the vote results soon.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:04 AM   #186 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twobadmice View Post
Our own economy is doing better than most in the EU and we are not tied by currency but multiple trade deals and free moment of goods really helps us.
It makes sense to be part of a bigger consortium of traders as it offers security.
Out of the EU we will have no say in policy etc but will need to trade so we will be like Switzerland .... Paying for the rights but no voice.
It's far from perfect but it suits us on so many levels. It offers employees so many rights. It offers us so many human rights.
I feel safer in Europe not from terrorists etc but from the corruption and brutality of our own government. In the EU they have to follow rules many of which help us the little guy.

Everyone has to vote for what they feel is right for them and their families. If we get it wrong in either direction we all suffer in the future. If we leave there is no going back. If we stay we have to live with it.

I just hope people vote without blinkers. We have changed a lot in the last 30 years. We have lost compassion, our technology has evolved and our government can follow our every move. What are the limits if they have no one to answer too - if a bank gives you a loan you sign terms. Those terms are binding. Our government even with curbs still managed to change all the loan agreements for all student loans retrospectively since 2011 last month and threw out the petition protesting against them. You trust them without the checks and balances of the EU?
Andre, what are you smoking? All the rights you like from Europe can be selectively imposed by our governments, or those we don't can be removed. Crucially if we don't like someone or something we can vote them out. That's completely fundamental to democracy.

You say we are safer from corruption of our government, but that government is not a dictatorship, we can sack them at will. The single worst thing about the eu that makes any economic price worth paying is the ability to hold them to account. Those who wield the ultimate power of decision making in the EU are the unelected commissioners, their performance or motive are irrelevant, we the people cannot remove them.

Before anyone says the House of Lords are unelected, they are a House of Parliament, they do not hold the ultimate power, they can question the decisions of the commons and send them back for debate but they cannot ultimately overturn them. In the EU, the unelected commission are those who can ignore everyone else and make what they want, happen.

THAT is all I need to risk the economy, but there are many other reasons.

I still believe it will go remain, and I'll be dissapointed. I can't see the bookies bring wrong.

I'm hopeful that the torrential rain will put off those less passionate in their views.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:11 AM   #187 (permalink)
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On a separate common sense note, we know that the EU is a failing economy. When we remain we will have to fund bailing out Greece again and probably Italy too. I think we can afford it but idealistically it's annoying.

The fundamental goal of the union is the United States of Europe and centralised vat collection among other things.

Ultimately when we do stay, I think we'll be delaying the inevitable as I suspect it will implode but I fear the damage to us when that does happen.

Both options are perilous, I just prefer the option where we are the only ones controlling the ship. If we sink, or if we make it, it will be our responsibility or our resolve that gets us through.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:15 AM   #188 (permalink)
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I'm pleased that we're getting some remain input. I'm not as far OUT as my narrative on this thread might suggest, currently I feel about 55% out and have spent on average about 4 hours an evening reading around this issue on all sides.

I still can't get myself over the democratic/sovereignty issue with the EU which is my fundamental sticking point. On principle alone, it is anti democratic and the irony of potentially voting for diminished democracy using the most democratic medium seems a little whack. For me, the EU hasn't been that bad, but isn't a system that wants supremacy over others a bit draconian? How can that be the way forward, and why should it ask us of this? Democracy has been hard won, who would ask that we give that up and to what end? I feel the need to safeguard ourselves against what the future may hold. If a future government neglected to use our veto on further integration I'd feel horribly betrayed and I have very little confidence in it being deployed since there will be a series of carrots no doubt on offer when that time would come to make it seem a worthwhile compromise. If we have no intention of adopting the euro, which is now a pre requisite for joining, we will always be on the periphery, never truly integrated and a part of Europe.

I'm annoyed that much of the argument has revolved around immigration, that is the hijacking of people's emotions, I wouldn't base my vote around immigration, stay or leave it won't resolve itself any time soon and I'm not convinced it needs to. I hate the word immigrant because it has become horribly derogatory in its connotations and is dehumanising to many of those who I respect and who will feel horrible in the wake of an exit.

With regards to the economy and trade deals, I think there is a huge amount of scaremongering, why should we pay into any system to maintain access, we simply won't pay anything or accept any compromises and have duty levied against our exports in europe instead. These may be typically 3-4% which given we have our own currency will be of no material consequence. Our trading partners will simply wait for a dip in the pound to hedge their funds and buy the currency when it's low, which has a far bigger % effect than the effect of any duty. In any event, the global way forward would be to scrap duties worldwide. The EU will seek protectionism which again is draconian.

The French have already tried to remove euro bond dealing from our banking sector and move it to France, blocked by the ECJ, so we need to be light on our feet to protect ourselves and strengthen our position globally which the EU is eroding. Our voice, has been replaced by a watered down (for our interests) block voice of the eu negotiating on our behalf.

I think the success of the EU project is more important to the beurocrats than the success of her member states. I believe it has too many flaws to succeed and will only show itself to be more clunky and outdated as time goes on. I'm all for a reformed EU but it will only happen in the wake of failure as a mk2 version. Until then, well, it's a close call. Thisnhas been at the forefront of my thoughts for the last month and well up there before that, I don't want to make the wrong call but a call needs to be made weighing uo everything, and it's not an easy straight cut decision for me, I fear my principles will be the overiding factor and those principles have been instilled by our culture , our education system and our history.

Good luck today, may whatever the decision be, be the right one for our country.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 07:35 AM   #189 (permalink)
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Adam I have only been smoking my downpipes.... lots of lovely less busy evening drives around 8pm every day!!

Whatever you all do VOTE! That way whatever the outcome you can all bitch and moan as you will have at least played your part!
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:03 AM   #190 (permalink)
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My sister in law is undecided and I've made a point of not "campaigning" to her in any way. The conversations we have are always enlightening and always fall upon the only fact we have.

Remain = nothing changes and are we happy with the status quo
Leave = Things will change, maybe for good, maybe for bad but at least we will be the masters of our own destiny. There is no way of really knowing until we do it.

In my life I've had points where a difficult decision has been avoided for too long and only when taken do the real benefits become clear. Looking back, too often, I think "I wish I'd done that earlier"

That's why I'm out. Lets throw the dice, see what happens.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:23 AM   #191 (permalink)
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Looking back, too often, I think "I wish I'd done that earlier"
I thought that when I bought my GT-R. It's what I should have bought 18 months previously instead my the crappy Aston I bought. But if you don't try it you don't know.

And I've just been to vote. Not one person there at the same time. Okay, it's a mobile hut on a grass verge that only serves about 30 roads, but I was expecting a small queue. But then, it's was 10:00 so people have gone off to work I suppose.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:48 AM   #192 (permalink)
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You really think your votes count? The government will do what they want regardless of the sheeps votes
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:58 AM   #193 (permalink)
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I've voted OUT, but I'm of the opinion now that Remain will win. Reason: PaddyPower are offering 1.11 to Remain and 6.5 to Leave.
They might know something we don't.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 11:02 AM   #194 (permalink)
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I've been looking at the odds on William Hills and Coral and they are flying out on leave.

Maybe a lot of bets are coming in for remain ?

I've also voted OUT already.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 11:16 AM   #195 (permalink)
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You really think your votes count? The government will do what they want regardless of the sheeps votes
So you're not voting?
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Old 23rd June 2016, 12:19 PM   #196 (permalink)
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You really think your votes count? The government will do what they want regardless of the sheeps votes
Then we may as well lay down and rot.

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Old 23rd June 2016, 12:25 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Remain = nothing changes and are we happy with the status quo
Leave = Things will change, maybe for good, maybe for bad but at least we will be the masters of our own destiny. There is no way of really knowing until we do it.
Mook, I fundamentally disagree with this.

It's not remain = status quo.

They are heading for the USE, we have made it clear we are out of ever closer union. Remain means definite internal struggles with the EU and probably bail outs we will have to contribute to when italy and greece (again) default.

Best description I heard was on the radio yesterday.

Both choices are incredibly risky and full of doubt. No one can predict the future with absolute confidence. Given the dangers on both sides I would rather we had our own control to deal with whatever lies ahead.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 12:58 PM   #198 (permalink)
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Mook, I fundamentally disagree with this.

It's not remain = status quo.

They are heading for the USE, we have made it clear we are out of ever closer union. Remain means definite internal struggles with the EU and probably bail outs we will have to contribute to when italy and greece (again) default.

Best description I heard was on the radio yesterday.

Both choices are incredibly risky and full of doubt. No one can predict the future with absolute confidence. Given the dangers on both sides I would rather we had our own control to deal with whatever lies ahead.
Well that just further reinforces my view to leave lol
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Old 23rd June 2016, 01:31 PM   #199 (permalink)
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I voted at 8 this morning before work and there were plenty of people waling up with there polling cards which was nice to see!. They said it was already much busier than the General Election which says something!.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 01:37 PM   #200 (permalink)
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Terrible to see all these people wailing, surely it's not that bad?
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