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Old 3rd February 2006, 08:38 AM   #1 (permalink)
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****ity **** ****y-**** :(

Been having some running / idle problems on my GTR32.

Had it in for a proper diagnosis a couple of days ago. Conclusion is that it;s one of two things.

1) A tight/worn turbo (cause unknown). It has HKS GT-SS tubbies and the symptoms point to one of these not spinning freely. Could be impeller blades touching the casing, knackered bearing, oil supply problems.... etc. etc. Basically requires a strip down to investigate and probably a recon if that's the case. Plus a review of the oil supply if it could be due to poor lube.

2) [email protected] stuck in a valve seat. If this is suspected then it's head off, clean up and check for bent valve

Either way it's far more cash than I can realistically spend at the moment with trying to save for the wedding. The simple fact is that it runs like a turd at the mo and whichever problem it turns out to be I shouldn't really run it until it's fixed, as the turbo could finally seize or alternatively damage could be done if it's a gunked up valve So I either a) break the bank and sell some stuff (that I don't really have to sell in the first place) to fund the work, or b) hardly drive it until after August (6 months!!!!). I *DON'T* want to get into debt to fix a problem on the car unless I absolutely have to...

So, as per the thread title - ****ity **** ****y-****
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Old 3rd February 2006, 08:46 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Just a thought.....

You can just about get a finger onto the compressor wheel if you remove the intake piping. This would allow you to check free rotation of turbo(s) / shaft play.

A leakdown test would show up a sticking / cruded valve.

Either option should be free / cheap to at least check.........
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Old 3rd February 2006, 11:28 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Good thought dude Will give it a lookee this weekend
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Old 3rd February 2006, 11:39 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExScoobyT
Just a thought.....

You can just about get a finger onto the compressor wheel if you remove the intake piping. This would allow you to check free rotation of turbo(s) / shaft play.

A leakdown test would show up a sticking / cruded valve.

Either option should be free / cheap to at least check.........
& do a cylinder compresion test ,you can check the condition of your plugs at the same time & coil packs aswell ,a sticky turbo wouldnt make it run rough just lack of power and a bent valve would show up on compresion test ,dose it use oil ,smoke alot ,use water or over heat ?
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Old 3rd February 2006, 01:04 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Compression test `may` not show a slightly leaking valve. Comp.test would also need to be done hot.....
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Old 3rd February 2006, 01:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim27
B
Either way it's far more cash than I can realistically spend at the moment with trying to save for the wedding.

just tell the father in law to be the meal went up by £5 a head, and that Your Fiance'e insists on it.

You may have to put on a girls voice to pull this one off

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Old 3rd February 2006, 02:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
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just tell the father in law to be the meal went up by £5 a head, and that Your Fiance'e insists on it.

You may have to put on a girls voice to pull this one off

mook
Easy - G clamps down the underpants and Bob's yer Uncle!
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Old 3rd February 2006, 02:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Well, the symptoms are a very rough idle. Accelerate then lift of and knock the old girl into neutral as you coast to traffic lights and the revs bounce all over the bl**dy place. The idle wobbles up and down too.

I don't believe in naming names but suffice to say that I took it to a well-known tuner (as a favour to a very close friend of mine) who checked the symptoms with Mark at Abbey and he confirmed that it was most likely one of those two problems.

Will have a shufty at the impeller blades and then arrange a leakdown test if they spin freely...
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Old 3rd February 2006, 09:09 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim27
Been having some running / idle problems on my GTR32.

Had it in for a proper diagnosis a couple of days ago. Conclusion is that it;s one of two things.

1) A tight/worn turbo (cause unknown). It has HKS GT-SS tubbies and the symptoms point to one of these not spinning freely. Could be impeller blades touching the casing, knackered bearing, oil supply problems.... etc. etc. Basically requires a strip down to investigate and probably a recon if that's the case. Plus a review of the oil supply if it could be due to poor lube.

2) [email protected] stuck in a valve seat. If this is suspected then it's head off, clean up and check for bent valve

Either way it's far more cash than I can realistically spend at the moment with trying to save for the wedding. The simple fact is that it runs like a turd at the mo and whichever problem it turns out to be I shouldn't really run it until it's fixed, as the turbo could finally seize or alternatively damage could be done if it's a gunked up valve So I either a) break the bank and sell some stuff (that I don't really have to sell in the first place) to fund the work, or b) hardly drive it until after August (6 months!!!!). I *DON'T* want to get into debt to fix a problem on the car unless I absolutely have to...

So, as per the thread title - ****ity **** ****y-****
Just a thought....... I destroyed a turbo on my GTR just before Xmas, overboosted and KABOOM!, I was about 2 miles from home, and it drove home no probs. When I got home, it sat and idled on my driveway OK. Stripped turbos off and found the rear turbo to be minus the whole exhaust turbine wheel. I did not have any idling issues, just had the power of a 1.6 Escort LOL. As the other guys say, try a leakdown test. For what its worth, sounds like an inlet manifold leak to me, throttle body to head gasket, or one of the injector to head seals maybe. Your problem seems to exist when the throttle butterflies are closed, pointing to possible idle mixture probs caused by too much air. Turbo does not feed air to engine on idle, the engine is drawing a vacuum at this point as indicated on your boost/vacuum gauge. What is the vacuum on your gauge at idle? If noticably closer to 0 than normal, you will possibly have a leak.

Hope some of this info could help you sort your motor out without costing you an arm and leg......

Cheers
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Old 4th February 2006, 05:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Well, I had a gander today. I stripped off all of the pre-turbo intake pipework right down to the entry elbows into the turbo impeller. The front turbo spins freely with no resistance at all. It's clean as a whistle as well.

The back turbo - well, I couldn't get my finger to the impeller to see how it spins - the entry elbow is too bl00dy long I could see down the elbow though, and could see a shallow puddle of black, thicky, sticky oil at the bottom, just before the impeller. I looked in the TWIN TURBO pipe and subsequent pipework on the way to the intercooler and this tarry oil residue is in there too.

Panic.

Surely the turbo isn't leaking oil through the seals?? There's no black smoke when idling or boosting at all...

So I scratched my noggin for a bit and called a very helpful chap who knows quite a bit more about these things than me. He thought that the oil was more than likely from the crankcase breather. It definitely wasn't fresh oil, given it's tar-like consistency.

Phew. Oil blowing from the crankcase breather is normal and nothing to panic about. Skylines with only 20k miles on them get this, so no sweat there.

Looking at the rear turbo entry elbow, it's a bit of a pig to remove in situ (requires a ball-joint socket thingy to get the lower bolt out, so a trip to Halfrauds is needed). This very knowledgable chappy advised against going that far and suggested that it *could* be a wiring problem with the AFMs. Because the engine was running sweet as a nut before it came out of it's old host (R33) the likelihood is that it's something to do with components of my R32 that were retained. The prime suspect was the wiring - providing too much resistance to the AFM signal, meaning that the idle is rough/wobbly. An immediate solution is to use a Scotch-lock to siamese the two AFM input wires into the ECU together to ensure that the ECU sees the highest voltage between the two all the time, smoothing the signal.

So did this, but the end result was that the idle became worse, dropping down to 6-700 rpm at some points and then revving back up to avoid stalling. The AFM readings on the hand commander were good and stable, but it obviously ain't the AFM wiring So removed the Scotchlock, applied a little insulating tape to the exposed wire cores and put the ECU back in it's corner.

One thing I HAVE noticed though is this.... When I started the old girl up there was a LOT of grey smoke coming from the exhaust. There was a hint of blue and it absolutely REEKED of petrol. Now yes, it was cold. So it may just be the choke/cold start making the mixture rich, but it was unnerving. I wiped the intake pipes and the rear turbo's intake elbow to remove most of the sludgy oil but other than that all I'd done is replace the old mucky A'PEXi air filters with clean new filter elements...??

Oh bugger - forgot to check the idle vaccuum reading. Will pop out and do that in a sec... what's the norm?
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Old 4th February 2006, 06:39 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Right - the vacuum reading at cold idle is just above the first marker. The only two readings on the factory gauge are +7 and -7 mmHg. Assuming that the middle mark on the vacuum side (before the -7 mark) is -3.5 that would make my vacuum reading about -3. Don't forget that it's running HKS cams - I think they're 264/264. Does that sound ok?

I've also been round the intake pipework and sprayed every join with WD40 but couldn't perceive any immediate rev increase. It'd be hard to spot anyway with the rough idle, but I didn't notice any nonetheless. I know that an intake air leak is a prime candidate but my gut feeling is that it's nothing as simple as that.

Any other ideas/suggestions?

I intend to strip the intake pipework off tomorrow and remove that rear turbo intake elbow so I can get my fingers in and see how the rear turbo turns. At least that'll either confirm or deny the possibility of it being a tight turbo. I'll also go round all the intake pipework and tighten all the jubilee clips, just to be sure (wishful thinking, I know, but may as well do it just to be certain).

I know it's a longshot, but is there anyone on here based anywhere near Bolton who happens to have a leakdown test kit handy and fancies helping me out tomorrow (Sunday)? LOL Can't think of any garages that are open Sundays to get a leakdown / compression test (leakdown and compression tests are both the same thing, right?) done, so it'll otherwise mean waiting yet another week as I can't afford the time off work at the mo to take the car in during a weekday.
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Old 4th February 2006, 06:51 PM   #12 (permalink)
[email protected] M/S is looking forward to running low 7,s in project GTST
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Has

It got an adjustable fuel pressure reg?

Tony
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Old 4th February 2006, 07:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Nope. Standard fuel set up. As an aside, I've got a Bosch 044 waiting to go in but am still on factory pump & regulator.
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Old 4th February 2006, 07:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR RICH
& do a cylinder compresion test ,you can check the condition of your plugs at the same time & coil packs aswell ,a sticky turbo wouldnt make it run rough just lack of power and a bent valve would show up on compresion test ,dose it use oil ,smoke alot ,use water or over heat ?
Sorry Rich - forgot to answer you earlier. No, it doesn't smoke (apart from today - see what I've just written a little earlier), doesn't use oil or water and nor does it overheat.

Am a bit concerned about all the light grey (possibly vaguely pale blue) smoke at cold idle - the smoke reeks of petrol too. I didn't run the car until warm - was only on long enough to check a few PFC readings and spray round the intercooler piping etc. so I can keep telling myself that it was condensation in the exhaust and rich idle for a cold start...?
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Old 4th February 2006, 07:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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i can get a compression tester from work and pop over in the morning if needed
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Old 4th February 2006, 11:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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So your running a 33 engine on a 32 Power FC then. Have you changed the exhaust gas sensors?????? They are very different from the 32 to the 33. There might be a setting somewhere on the powerfc to change the between the 2 types, I don't know as I don't use one.

Easy thing to do is just disconnect them and see how it revs and idles, if its sweet then the problem lies in that area.
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Old 5th February 2006, 12:45 AM   #17 (permalink)
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If you can borrow the coils, plugs, AFMs and ignition amp off another GTR you know to be running OK. Also check the injectors by pulling their plugs off at idle one at a time.
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Old 5th February 2006, 10:02 AM   #18 (permalink)
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So your running a 33 engine on a 32 Power FC then. Have you changed the exhaust gas sensors?????? They are very different from the 32 to the 33. There might be a setting somewhere on the powerfc to change the between the 2 types, I don't know as I don't use one.

Easy thing to do is just disconnect them and see how it revs and idles, if its sweet then the problem lies in that area.
It's a 33 PFC. I came along with the engine from the original host R33. The engine has R33 elbows and as such R33 O2 sensors - Ron Kiddell changed whatever connectors needed changing when he put the engine into my 32.
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Old 5th February 2006, 11:06 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Then that has been covered. Back to the drawing board then.
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Old 5th February 2006, 11:56 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Thumbs down

Yup Have just stripped the intake piping again to see if I can get to the lower bolt on the rear turbo's intake elbow. Not a cat in hell's chance I I can just about get to and undo the upper bolt but the lower one is hidden away between the exhaust side of turbo 1 and the elbow itself. Even with a ball-joint ratchet there's no way I can get to it I know that some knowledgeable people have said that you *can* do it, but from what I can see it has to be done blind and it'd have to be a really thin socket arm with possible a double joint in it, which (knowing my luck) wouldn't withstand the torque loading...

Oh yeah - realised that (being a numpty) I'd not reconnected the crankcase breather pipe to the intake which (I suspect) may have been causing the smoke/fumes etc. Started her up this morning with the pipe connected and there was the usual light grey faint exhaust gas but nothing like the James-Bond-stylee smokescreen from yesterday

Have also disconnected the O2 sensor plugs to see if it made any difference - not a sausage, I'm afraid.

Looking on the AFM readout on the PFC hand commander you can see the voltage from AFM 1 going up and AFM 2 goes down, then they bounce back and go the other way - it's like the voltage is seesawing back and forth. I'm guessing that this isn't the cause of the problem (primarily because when I siamesed the AFM 1 & AFM 2 feeds into the PFC the voltage stabilised yet the idle was still turd - probably even turder - is that a real word?? than before!) so the seesawing AFM voltages I guess are as a result of whatever's happening, rather than the cause.

Have just stripped the centre plate and coils off the head waiting for John (car32) to pop over with a compression test kit. I notice that on the coil for cylinder 6, where the plug should slide off the female part of the coil, the female part of the coil comes off with the plug exposing the 3 pins that connect it to the base part of the coil. Although not brilliant, the connection is still there so not convinced that this is the problem. Besides, wouldn't this just cause a misfire if that was the case?? Not the horrendous idling that I seem to be sufferin{ahem} "enjoying"?

Well, have done pretty much all I can until John turns up so time for a cuppa and to get warm again (goddamn drizzly rain {grumble}{grumble}{grumble}...)
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