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Old 22nd March 2018, 09:26 AM   #1 (permalink)
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OS GIKEN - Differentials (Can Kill!) - Our Experience...

We've had a very bad experience with OS Giken differentials here at SVM which has gone on to cost us over £140k with no support from the manufacturers...

It's been over 6 years of asking for help, independent assessments etc and they have not stood by their product despite an engineers report confirming that the component was not up to the job.

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Old 22nd March 2018, 10:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
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So what would you say about a statement that said you had been told by OS Giken it was not suitable for that power level ?
And that OS Giken had offered to make you one suitable for the power being used.

Copied from another thread
They were told not to use that diff with that much power as it wasn’t rated for it. It’s for circuit racing and a lower power, they were offered to get one made that would work but just decided to put the same one in again and that happened.

Of course there would be a paper trail of this either electronic of physical.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 11:32 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dudersvr View Post
So what would you say about a statement that said you had been told by OS Giken it was not suitable for that power level ?
And that OS Giken had offered to make you one suitable for the power being used.

Copied from another thread
They were told not to use that diff with that much power as it wasn't rated for it. It's for circuit racing and a lower power, they were offered to get one made that would work but just decided to put the same one in again and that happened.

Of course there would be a paper trail of this either electronic of physical.
If that's correct then it's 100% Svm's fault for using parts which aren't suitable.... That's scarey we put faith and trust in tuners who claim to know there sh*t
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Old 22nd March 2018, 12:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Hi Guys, get the kettle on lol....

A little more info about this incident from our side, regarding the OS Giken diff. Back in 2011 SVM started to raise the power of their R35's. As some of you are aware we actually broke the top speed World Record over 1mile and reached 218mph at RAF Marham. Not fast by today's standards I know, but at the time the best out there .

In this quest for pushing boundaries SVM looked at all options to make R35's more powerful and push the boundaries of performance. To accelerate harder and faster, SVM wanted more grip, not only with tyres, and obviously one way was to look to improve mechanical grip. You can have all the power in the world but if you cant put it down, whats the point? Searching we came across OS Giken, their adverts promoted a more reliable differential, the ability to lock and improve acceleration, they published the use of these diffs for high powered GT-R's. Just what the team at SVM wanted. We were guided towards the UK dealer, after lengthy talks we managed to negotiate a special rate to publicize and show off the capability of these diffs. The deal was struck and several diffs were purchased, not only for our show cars but for several customer cars too. Some may remember the HULK? That particular GT-R was the first to have a OS Giken Spec X rear diff fitted.

However, the first sign of concern was from a track/circuit prepared GT-R SVM built for Time-Attack, the front diff collapsed and took the car off the track and was involved in a small accident. The owner of the car, Richard Marshall put in a claim with the supplier and they swapped the diff FOC, they explained it was a 'one off' incident. The company assured SVM all was well, and the issue was with a broken front diff, not the rear. At this time or thereabouts, SVM purchased two rear diffs for a GT-R we named Mad Medusa (the GT-R in the video). Both purchase invoices detailed 'JH' John Hanton SVM's customer, the dealer knew the intended use and extra discount was applied to showcase the "Giken product".

We purchased two diffs for Mad Madusa to enable quick gearbox changes depending on what the vehicle was to be used for. We did not have the budgets of some of the larger teams, so a one car suits all approach.

First up, Mad Medusa was chasing JM Imports and Fman (another SVM customer) up the drag strip at Santa Pod UK. The Giken literature and supporting product information did promote motorsport (and still does) and we had no reason to believe the Rear Diff would not be suitable. To put this into perspective, the Power of theses cars back in 2012 was around 1200-1300bhp (engine) so no real monster of today's standards.
Medusa ran an OEM manifold with 6 injectors, again putting this in perspective (not a monster).

For ease of following this story, i'll call this diff for Medusa (DIFF1), the drag diff. The car was an 8 second GT-R and after several passes SVM had their first OS Giken 'rear' diff failure. Tails between legs we sent the (DIFF1) back to Giken Japan via the UK Dealer. They came back to us after their inspection that there was no manufacturing issue, no help would be given. (We later found out, and have written evidence that no inspection was actually ever carried out by Giken)

A letter of offer was sent to SVM by the dealer, Giken could build us a stronger diff that may suit Medusa within a drag application. They also gave us an alternative to supply the exactly the same *Spec-X diff* as before at a reduced cost.

As SVM had already purchased a second diff, money spent. SVM decided not to carry on drag racing with these particular diffs due to experience. We took the dealers advice and fitted the same diff product as we had done before, a top spec 'Spec X' differential. However, this 'DIFF2' was to be used for Top Speed runs as SVM had done before with the companies own demo car, the HULK. Using this diff in a top speed event, as opposed to drag racing obviously reduces the shock stress on the diff and as they are sold suitable for high powered GT-Rs for improved acceleration it made sense to fit, as that is what they are designed for. Otherwise, what are they good for?

As you can see from the video this was no drag start, it was a progressive pull. In fourth gear you hear a click, we thought at first the diff had locked (as we state in the video), after a full inspection, this however wasn't the case, it was in-fact the opposite, the diff had collapsed making the diff 'open', instantly removing the drive from 1 wheel. The tyre marks on the ground is from the locking of the front wheels once the vehicle had turned and was travelling backwards towards the tree. The driver John (SVM) was experienced at driving at 240MPH, with this failed component he could not save it.

The car was destroyed, 6 years on a full independent engineers report with all parties present was carried out. The conclusion was their was no outside influences to the car which could have caused the crash. The internals of the cross shafts of the Giken Diff had exploded not being able to withstand the power (1300bhp). To summarise, SVM broke 3x OS Giken Diffs. The first a customers 850bhp Time-Attack track car, as said, this diff was replaced FOC for the customer not SVM.

Medusa's two rear diffs also had a similar fate, DIFF1 Drag racing and DIFF2 simply accelerating. As a company we accept risks however we also expect manufacturers to stand by their claims ss Giken states their product for 'High Powered GTR's' this simply isn't the case. What is high power? Back then it was unusual to drive a 1200-1300bhp GT-R not so these days. My personal advice is do not fit this product they are much weaker and more unreliable than OEM.

This issue has cost me personally £140,000. (One Hundred and Fourty thousand pounds) to find this out, I had asked Gikens UK dealer insurers for a reasonable offer in support.

I hear did it go to court? No it hasn't, the court costs for me to fight the dealers insurance is vast, almost as much as my loss to date. I believe there has been a breach of contract under the sale of goods act, goods not fit for purpose, I just haven't the balls to fight anymore. All I can do is tell my story to potentially someones life and to also potentially save customers and tuners alike vast expenses if you run into issues with these products. Our money has gone now, just stay safe and do not use OS Giken Diffs. Ask yourself, after 6 years of this issue which they have been fully aware of, why have they not changed their literature and stopped the sale of these diffs to 'High Powered GT-R' owners.

Kevan Kemp
Severn Valley Motorsport
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Old 22nd March 2018, 01:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Hi Guys, get the kettle on lol....

A little more info about this incident from our side, regarding the OS Giken diff. Back in 2011 SVM started to raise the power of their R35's. As some of you are aware we actually broke the top speed World Record over 1mile and reached 218mph at RAF Marham. Not fast by today's standards I know, but at the time the best out there .

In this quest for pushing boundaries SVM looked at all options to make R35's more powerful and push the boundaries of performance. To accelerate harder and faster, SVM wanted more grip, not only with tyres, and obviously one way was to look to improve mechanical grip. You can have all the power in the world but if you cant put it down, whats the point? Searching we came across OS Giken, their adverts promoted a more reliable differential, the ability to lock and improve acceleration, they published the use of these diffs for high powered GT-R's. Just what the team at SVM wanted. We were guided towards the UK dealer, after lengthy talks we managed to negotiate a special rate to publicize and show off the capability of these diffs. The deal was struck and several diffs were purchased, not only for our show cars but for several customer cars too. Some may remember the HULK? That particular GT-R was the first to have a OS Giken Spec X rear diff fitted.

However, the first sign of concern was from a track/circuit prepared GT-R SVM built for Time-Attack, the front diff collapsed and took the car off the track and was involved in a small accident. The owner of the car, Richard Marshall put in a claim with the supplier and they swapped the diff FOC, they explained it was a 'one off' incident. The company assured SVM all was well, and the issue was with a broken front diff, not the rear. At this time or thereabouts, SVM purchased two rear diffs for a GT-R we named Mad Medusa (the GT-R in the video). Both purchase invoices detailed 'JH' John Hanton SVM's customer, the dealer knew the intended use and extra discount was applied to showcase the "Giken product".

We purchased two diffs for Mad Madusa to enable quick gearbox changes depending on what the vehicle was to be used for. We did not have the budgets of some of the larger teams, so a one car suits all approach.

First up, Mad Medusa was chasing JM Imports and Fman (another SVM customer) up the drag strip at Santa Pod UK. The Giken literature and supporting product information did promote motorsport (and still does) and we had no reason to believe the Rear Diff would not be suitable. To put this into perspective, the Power of theses cars back in 2012 was around 1200-1300bhp (engine) so no real monster of today's standards.
Medusa ran an OEM manifold with 6 injectors, again putting this in perspective (not a monster).

For ease of following this story, i'll call this diff for Medusa (DIFF1), the drag diff. The car was an 8 second GT-R and after several passes SVM had their first OS Giken 'rear' diff failure. Tails between legs we sent the (DIFF1) back to Giken Japan via the UK Dealer. They came back to us after their inspection that there was no manufacturing issue, no help would be given. (We later found out, and have written evidence that no inspection was actually ever carried out by Giken)

A letter of offer was sent to SVM by the dealer, Giken could build us a stronger diff that may suit Medusa within a drag application. They also gave us an alternative to supply the exactly the same *Spec-X diff* as before at a reduced cost.

As SVM had already purchased a second diff, money spent. SVM decided not to carry on drag racing with these particular diffs due to experience. We took the dealers advice and fitted the same diff product as we had done before, a top spec 'Spec X' differential. However, this 'DIFF2' was to be used for Top Speed runs as SVM had done before with the companies own demo car, the HULK. Using this diff in a top speed event, as opposed to drag racing obviously reduces the shock stress on the diff and as they are sold suitable for high powered GT-Rs for improved acceleration it made sense to fit, as that is what they are designed for. Otherwise, what are they good for?

As you can see from the video this was no drag start, it was a progressive pull. In fourth gear you hear a click, we thought at first the diff had locked (as we state in the video), after a full inspection, this however wasn't the case, it was in-fact the opposite, the diff had collapsed making the diff 'open', instantly removing the drive from 1 wheel. The tyre marks on the ground is from the locking of the front wheels once the vehicle had turned and was travelling backwards towards the tree. The driver John (SVM) was experienced at driving at 240MPH, with this failed component he could not save it.

The car was destroyed, 6 years on a full independent engineers report with all parties present was carried out. The conclusion was their was no outside influences to the car which could have caused the crash. The internals of the cross shafts of the Giken Diff had exploded not being able to withstand the power (1300bhp). To summarise, SVM broke 3x OS Giken Diffs. The first a customers 850bhp Time-Attack track car, as said, this diff was replaced FOC for the customer not SVM.

Medusa's two rear diffs also had a similar fate, DIFF1 Drag racing and DIFF2 simply accelerating. As a company we accept risks however we also expect manufacturers to stand by their claims ss Giken states their product for 'High Powered GTR's' this simply isn't the case. What is high power? Back then it was unusual to drive a 1200-1300bhp GT-R not so these days. My personal advice is do not fit this product they are much weaker and more unreliable than OEM.

This issue has cost me personally £140,000. (One Hundred and Fourty thousand pounds) to find this out, I had asked Gikens UK dealer insurers for a reasonable offer in support.

I hear did it go to court? No it hasn't, the court costs for me to fight the dealers insurance is vast, almost as much as my loss to date. I believe there has been a breach of contract under the sale of goods act, goods not fit for purpose, I just haven't the balls to fight anymore. All I can do is tell my story to potentially someones life and to also potentially save customers and tuners alike vast expenses if you run into issues with these products. Our money has gone now, just stay safe and do not use OS Giken Diffs. Ask yourself, after 6 years of this issue which they have been fully aware of, why have they not changed their literature and stopped the sale of these diffs to 'High Powered GT-R' owners.

Kevan Kemp
Severn Valley Motorsport
I ain't no specialist but personally if I were building a beast of that power I would only use the recommended parts which state its tolerance and power handling spec, I mean going by the simple term as high powered could mean anything more than stock and the manufacturer could argue that as what high power means, personally I feel that you should have specifically made the relevant enquiries to cover yourself.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 01:31 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Not good to read at all! I can't weigh in much but I hope this brings some sort of help forward for you
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Old 22nd March 2018, 04:40 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I think if you put a diff in a car used in a motorsport application and didn't specifically ask the manufacturer of that part if it would support 12-1300 hp then then blame is entirely in your hands.

Just because cars run more power now does not excuse your responsibility to carry out appropriate due diligence on the parts you are fitting to ensure the safety of any driver of that vehicle.

you took a chance on a cheaper part that wasn't up to the job, I think right now you are lucky it "only" cost you £140k and not someones life.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 08:15 PM   #8 (permalink)
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not taking sides but i think the you tube video could be a potential lawsuit ,if OS say there business is being affected ???
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Old 22nd March 2018, 09:41 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Power level is not relevant.
Torque, gear ratio, diff ratio, tyre mu, car mass are required for proper calculations.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 09:48 PM   #10 (permalink)
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only imho of course

true lightspeed but It seems to me svms are completely relying on being able to prove the term high power means 1200 ish .

To do this they make loads of references to the fact that gtrs have a lot more power now and try to infer that somehow this means the term high power should somehow be linked to todays higher numbers .

Clearly that is just plain daft
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Old 22nd March 2018, 10:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Power level is not relevant.
Torque, gear ratio, diff ratio, tyre mu, car mass are required for proper calculations.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 11:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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The sight of that smashed up Nissan GT-R is truly shocking IMHO!!!

Looks like the Driver is very lucky to be alive....
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Old 22nd March 2018, 11:45 PM   #13 (permalink)
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SVM, very interested in what actualy failed in the diff. Do you have any more pictures you can post because it's not immediately obvious in the 2 pics in the video what exactly let go. Did you strip the diff and have you any pics of the inside?
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Old 23rd March 2018, 01:48 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I dont buy it.

Specifically because of this:

"I hear did it go to court? No it hasn't, the court costs for me to fight the dealers insurance is vast, almost as much as my loss to date."

If events went down as SVM say they did, then the court case would be a slam dunk for any solicitor, probably easily done via self-representation as well.

The only reason you would walk away from a 140k loss like that would be if you know you couldn't win, such as, GIKEN have an email telling you not to use it at those power levels.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 07:07 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Power level is not relevant.
Torque, gear ratio, diff ratio, tyre mu, car mass are required for proper calculations.
what i meant was that svm are relying on "high power" as a deffinition to blame osg . it seems to be the cornerstone of their case. And it is seriously flawed.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 10:58 AM   #16 (permalink)
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what i meant was that svm are relying on "high power" as a deffinition to blame osg . it seems to be the cornerstone of their case. And it is seriously flawed.
This.

Higher power could easily be interpreted as 300bhp more than the car was delivered with - so 800 odd bhp would be fair enough I think. at nearly three times the original power of the car I think that would be a stretch to argue it would be covered by the term "high power"

Ask any Joe Public driver if they think 600bhp is high power and I reckon at least 9 times out of 10 the answer would be yes.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 01:18 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I dont buy it.

Specifically because of this:

"I hear did it go to court? No it hasn't, the court costs for me to fight the dealers insurance is vast, almost as much as my loss to date."

If events went down as SVM say they did, then the court case would be a slam dunk for any solicitor, probably easily done via self-representation as well.

The only reason you would walk away from a 140k loss like that would be if you know you couldn't win, such as, GIKEN have an email telling you not to use it at those power levels.
Actually even if you have a 'good' case then the estimate of costs would still likely be £100K+ - believe me I know from experience - and very often settlements are not quite as generous as you would like. So it's not a decision to be taken lightly to go to court, even with a very good case. In a complex technical case self-representation would be impossible to do with any real credibility, and the hundreds of hours it would involve as well....

/Not a customer of either party.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 01:57 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Out of interest, how many performance parts manufacturers do offer any kind of warranty? The variables they are subjected to must make it extremely difficult.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 03:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I dont buy it.

Specifically because of this:

"I hear did it go to court? No it hasn't, the court costs for me to fight the dealers insurance is vast, almost as much as my loss to date."

If events went down as SVM say they did, then the court case would be a slam dunk for any solicitor, probably easily done via self-representation as well.

The only reason you would walk away from a 140k loss like that would be if you know you couldn't win, such as, GIKEN have an email telling you not to use it at those power levels.
Actually even if you have a 'good' case then the estimate of costs would still likely be £100K+ - believe me I know from experience - and very often settlements are not quite as generous as you would like. So it's not a decision to be taken lightly to go to court, even with a very good case. In a complex technical case self-representation would be impossible to do with any real credibility, and the hundreds of hours it would involve as well....

/Not a customer of either party.
Even if you self represent which is difficult in a case like this you are also on the hook potentially for the other side's costs even in some circumstances if you win.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 03:28 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Perhaps it underlines SVM's case that they feel comfortable posting this without fear of OSG attempting to sue them?
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