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Old 27th July 2019, 04:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Tuning modification protocol

Hi guys I just wanted some opinions.

If you had your car engine rebuilt because you didn’t want any issues when running big power and went to the hassle of spending a hell of a lot of time and money buying and changing everything in and outside to prevent any issues.

What and how would expect the company you deal with to act?

This would be the logical protocol for me.

For example;

Car is booked in
Spec is kind of agreed but of course always changes in this case for the better as there is no room for cutting corners at this level of power or any power IMO
Build goes ahead
Everything is put back together
Engine is run in
Then it’s time for mapping on the Dyno
Then car should be driven on the road or private runway in this case and adjusted until the professionals (hopefully not cowboys) being employed is happy to give the car back to the customer
Then the customer picks up the car in perfect order
Then customer should be as happy as Larry to go use the car and just maintain it as it has been over specked to maintain reliability and also maybe brings car back for a thorough check over depending on the nature of this beast but in this case a must again IMO.

IF and a big IF there has been a human error and humans do make errors the professionals should be able to take a bit of criticism and deal with any issues you come across without a hassle or headache when someone or anyone’s pride and joy is involved?

Does this make sense to any of you or am I over expecting and just in dream land because I personally think this is common sense ?

Feel free to comment.
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Old 27th July 2019, 06:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Yep! Got to agree with everything you've said.

My sister in law has a little Tigra 1.4, head gasket went on it. She's had it for over a year so warranty has expired. She took it back to the garage who sorted it, skimmed the head, etc. Anyway, ended up with another issue, hesitation, car not running right, so it goes back. It was a hydraulic lifter(?) issue, they'll sort it FOC. Oh, and the flexi joint in the exhaust that was flagged up on the MOT, but they didn't fix, we'll sort that too, FOC.. Car is ready to collect (they forgot to phone her) so they went to jump it last weekend due to a flat battery and blew the ECU... Everything has been sorted by them (so far) with the only bill for the original work for the head gasket, etc. They've been nothing but honest so far and bent over backwards as they've known the car for a long time (couple of previous owners, all one family & they are friends of the garage owner) - nothing has been too much trouble, even the issues not caused by them.

As I said, this is a car worth maybe £1-2k? Work they did wasn't right (or was caused by the place that did the head work) and they're getting it fixed for her for free. I'd expect ANY garage to do the same, whether it was a £2k Tigra or a £1m Ferrari!

You should be able to expect a certain level of service from a garage, any garage. From a simple oil and filter to a full on restoration, the trust should be there, you shouldn't have to keep on at someone to get issues resolved.
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Old 27th July 2019, 07:19 PM   #3 (permalink)
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This sounds great. They know how to treat their customers and I’m glad that you agree with my logic.

To me the value of the car shouldn’t matter a customer is a customer but obviously others can have a different perception when it comes to money etc.
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Old 28th July 2019, 08:59 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Bump.

I Cannot Believe that no one else has some input on this?

I think this is an important matter for all of us!
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:08 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Yeah I dont think it matters what type of business your in everybody should be treated fairly and that shouldn't changed once you've handed them over money. I had a problem with my car totally dead every morning after I picked it up from getting my single turbo swap I went through two batterys trying to figure out whats doing it. Richard told me to come back down and he was with it for more than a hour going over everything he did and it turned out it was the aircon of all things that was draining the car lol but after all his time he didn't want anything for it plus if I ever need help he's always there if I need him.
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Old 29th July 2019, 09:41 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Agree fully with you and Duke.

As a customer, you should never ever feel worried about handing over your car to have work done... EVER... PERIOD!

The shop, tuner or whoever should do all they can to keep your trust as their main priority, because in the end it is a personal transaction, a transaction of trust.

I trust my local garage wholeheartedly, not because they get everything 100% right, but because when something goes wrong they will do what they can to put it right and not beat about the bush or pass the blame.

In the end for them it's about keeping the customer happy and ALWAYS maintaining trust. It's because of that ethic I recommend all my friends and family to go there to have work done on their cars.

Some people underestimate the word of mouth - keep a customer happy and they'll tell a hundred people, make a customer unhappy... again they'll tell a hundred people. So which is the best option?

I'm reasonable, I know things go wrong, and tbh when things do go wrong it's not really about how it happened, it's about what will be done to deal with it - that is what I look at always.

A person's or company's approach to dealing with an unforeseen problem speaks a thousand words.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:05 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRNICK View Post
Hi guys I just wanted some opinions.
As the old saying goes, opinions are like arseholes and everybody has one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRNICK View Post
If you had your car engine rebuilt because you didn’t want any issues when running big power and went to the hassle of spending a hell of a lot of time and money buying and changing everything in and outside to prevent any issues.
I think it needs to be clear what the actual contracted works are Nick. The above would suggest different to what you expect below, so what exactly is the customer's scope and what is the tuner's scope? Perhaps a contract would be the best way forward in these situations?

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Originally Posted by GTRNICK View Post
What and how would expect the company you deal with to act?
Professional, nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRNICK View Post
This would be the logical protocol for me.

For example;

Car is booked in
(1) Spec is kind of agreed but of course always changes in this case for the better as there is no room for cutting corners at this level of power or any power IMO
Build goes ahead
Everything is put back together
Engine is run in
Then it’s time for mapping on the Dyno
Then car should be driven on the road or private runway in this case and adjusted until the professionals (hopefully not cowboys) being employed is happy to give the car back to the customer
Then the customer picks up the car in perfect order
Then customer should be as happy as Larry to go use the car and just maintain it (2) as it has been over specked to maintain reliability and also maybe brings car back for a thorough check over depending on the nature of this beast but in this case a must again IMO.
1. Any change to the spec should be a contract amendment, both parties need to sign to agree the way forward. How many times have you heard that the customer insisted on eBay items etc being used rather than taking the advice of the 'professionals'?
2. So long as the spec is agreed or the customer knows the limitations of the parts used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRNICK View Post
IF and a big IF there has been a human error and humans do make errors the professionals should be able to take a bit of criticism and deal with any issues you come across without a hassle or headache when someone or anyone’s pride and joy is involved?
Component failures aside, proving human error can often be difficult and expensive and it can be very easy to rely on this when things go wrong. Honesty plays a huge part when things do go wrong but eventually, someone with the disposable funds or sheer tenacity will get to the bottom of a failure and it casts a shadow of doubt so best to operate with crystal clear clarity IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRNICK View Post
Does this make sense to any of you or am I over expecting and just in dream land because I personally think this is common sense ?

Feel free to comment.
It all makes sense Nick and it's admirable that you and many others feel this way but sadly, I very much doubt things will ever change with these ever ageing cars.

As a word of further advice to anyone going for a 'build', I would add:

1. A contract - draft one and sign
A contract protects both parties and clearly defines the scope and charges; changes should be agreed and amended.

2. Unidentified issues
A 5 minute scan over the car doesn’t paint a full picture. When works begin in earnest, issues can become apparent that add to the timescale and cost - customers need to be aware of this.

3. Estimate or quotation
Not yet found a tuner who (at first pass) fully understood the legal implications of the difference in definitions. Everyone should fully understand the difference.

4. Remaining amicable
Inevitably should things go wrong, tempers flare and people fall out. ALWAYS the best solution is to remain amicable and work things out together.
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Old 29th July 2019, 01:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Great posts guys thank you for your responses.

Verbal contract should be enough but it seem to good to be true so to anyone reading these posts I hope you are going to learn from others mistakes.

All I can say is what goes around comes around and the truth always comes out in the end!

Also I hope this truth will stay posted on the forums and never be deleted to protect the rogue traders!!!!
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Old 29th July 2019, 02:53 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Verbal contract should be enough but it seem to good to be true so to anyone reading these posts I hope you are going to learn from others mistakes.
If you’re about to consider works and expect to hand over thousands of pounds, would you really want to rely solely on a verbal agreement?
I know you should be able to have that must trust but from the past experience of countless others, I’d say a written quotation should be provided as a minimum.
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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If you’re about to consider works and expect to hand over thousands of pounds, would you really want to rely solely on a verbal agreement?
I know you should be able to have that must trust but from the past experience of countless others, I’d say a written quotation should be provided as a minimum.
Well in this case this is the GTR forums fault for allowing this to happen!!!

Because people have not been allowed to post the real evidence based truths of what has happened to them and their vehicles in the past and only the gory stories!!!

So People have suffered as a consequence and I will indeed put a stop to this kind of disclosure for sure!!!
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Old 29th July 2019, 03:41 PM   #11 (permalink)
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If you’re about to consider works and expect to hand over thousands of pounds, would you really want to rely solely on a verbal agreement?
I know you should be able to have that must trust but from the past experience of countless others, I’d say a written quotation should be provided as a minimum.
I got a quote from my tuner, as a matter of course before my build, which basically protects both ends from any confusion, what is what you want.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I got a quote from my tuner, as a matter of course before my build, which basically protects both ends from any confusion, what is what you want.
So long as you both understand it’s a quote and not an estimate.
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:24 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I got a quote from my tuner, as a matter of course before my build, which basically protects both ends from any confusion, what is what you want.
So did I, get a quote.

But a quote is just about money and the quote can change when their sales tactics kick in once they have your car apart. (Their greed)

A quote doesn’t cover you for incompetence or lack of knowledge does it?

It just clarifies the amount your spending and what they are doing to the car.

It doesn’t exactly tell you it takes ex amount of time to build the car unless they are top level tuners that 100% know what they are doing or the fact that the company in question can’t actually do the job properly and has to employ external services for help or the fact they are to tight ass to even do that and just palm you off and show no interest?
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Old 29th July 2019, 05:54 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Unfortunately in 2019 a verbal contract or any kind of verbal agreement is not always 100% valid.
It is not right in my opinion.
When discussing a project, which is simple maintenance or a more complex job always good (and also very pleasant) being able to discuss step by step and know that you can trust and that any problems can be discussed and evaluated together, without the garage thinking only to deliver and collect the money

It is important to always share the various experiences correctly in order to be able to give opinions and ideas to others who will learn about them in the future
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Old 29th July 2019, 07:37 PM   #15 (permalink)
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The way you are describing with that order sounds very reasonable and correct, in our days unfortunately everyone wants to be millionaires and no one will do what you described because the most of the garages they want to move fast and take as many cars as they can so they can make more money, most important thing is to write down as a contract the deal you are making with them because just words don't count anywhere in our days, for example if the engine blows 5m off the garage they should take the responsibility for it. Unfortunately no garage does that.
The other thing is that to find a garage which it will make the project you have described and be decent and sign a contract with them they will probably charge you more than the value of your car but at least you will be able if something goes wrong to fix it for you with no extra money etc.
I have hear Many Many stories and it happen to me many times to get F.... by machine shops locally who didn't know how to do their job. At the end of the day after i have lost a lot of hard earned money i have read and practice to my own car did everything my self and my car is running strong since. This is here in my country though, i am sure in the UK there are lots of good shops which you can make a good running car, they will bite but if you make a good written deal you will be ok.
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Old 29th July 2019, 08:32 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The way you are describing with that order sounds very reasonable and correct, in our days unfortunately everyone wants to be millionaires and no one will do what you described because the most of the garages they want to move fast and take as many cars as they can so they can make more money, most important thing is to write down as a contract the deal you are making with them because just words don't count anywhere in our days, for example if the engine blows 5m off the garage they should take the responsibility for it. Unfortunately no garage does that.
The other thing is that to find a garage which it will make the project you have described and be decent and sign a contract with them they will probably charge you more than the value of your car but at least you will be able if something goes wrong to fix it for you with no extra money etc.
I have hear Many Many stories and it happen to me many times to get F.... by machine shops locally who didn't know how to do their job. At the end of the day after i have lost a lot of hard earned money i have read and practice to my own car did everything my self and my car is running strong since. This is here in my country though, i am sure in the UK there are lots of good shops which you can make a good running car, they will bite but if you make a good written deal you will be ok.


Unfortunately in the UK I cannot think of any skyline gtr shop that is any good anymore and it will be very hard for me to trust anyone. (99% of them)

I honestly have thought about selling my car many times but how can I sell it when it’s not running correctly?

I’d be just as big an ass as the cowboys that have touched my car in the first place.

There needs to be some form of regulation to protect us from getting screwed and I think this forum needs start looking after us because these rogue traders are getting away with murder and it’s not fair.

I understand this is a business but look at what is happening to people who are essentially the back bone of the forum. You start losing long term members and there is no business!

I personally love this forum bar a few negatives and I love skylines and gtr’s So much and this is problem. When we are passionate about something we get taken advantage of which is disgusting.
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Old 29th July 2019, 10:13 PM   #17 (permalink)
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There needs to be some form of regulation to protect us from getting screwed and I think this forum needs start looking after us because these rogue traders are getting away with murder and it’s not fair.
To put it simply Nick, the forum doesn't want or need to look after the membership, it just needs to allow informative and factual posts that warn others of the issues many have faced. Sadly, policing such (negative feedback) posts appears to be the crux and nobody seems prepared (supposedly due to legal recourse) to tackle the elephant in the room.
It's explained quite openly here: https://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/412266-trouble-making.html

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I understand this is a business but look at what is happening to people who are essentially the back bone of the forum. You start losing long term members and there is no business!
No disrespect intended but you're only one voice and too late now IMHO. The damage is already done and forums in general are on the decline, issues like these will only exacerbate the situation, as I see it.

When I say that, I mean it's clear you feel you've had bad service but it won't be well received here, especially if it's a forum sponsor. Again, that's just my opinion and I'd love to be proven wrong however.

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I personally love this forum bar a few negatives and I love skylines and gtr’s So much and this is problem. When we are passionate about something we get taken advantage of which is disgusting.
That's life unfortunately and not unique to our pride and joy(s); buying a car, house or just about anything and you'll have your pants down if you show anything other than purchasing with the head rather than heart. If you fall in love with a purchase, best be wearing a damn good poker face!

Anyway, if nothing else, this generated a little traffic
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:42 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The law states that if you post something that someone else feels is defamatory or otherwise, they can either ask the poster to retract their comments or if they refuse they must provide thier personal details to enable legal pursuit

My position is merely one of respect and reason. If you post in a respectful manner and have reasonably exhausted other avenues then I see no issue for anything to be moderated. What I won’t tolerate is witch hunts and every Tom dick and Harry sticking the knife in if the tuner in question hasn’t responded.

Often a tuner won’t respond due to legal advice so my job is to be moderate. To be impartial and to be fair to all involved.

With regards protecting users from ‘rogue’ traders. If we took that view, where a bad experience equals removal from the forum, we genuinely wouldnt have any tuners on board. Unfortunately I think it’s impossible to spend big money with a tuner and not end up disappointed in the long run.
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Old 30th July 2019, 02:01 AM   #19 (permalink)
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The law states that if you post something that someone else feels is defamatory or otherwise, they can either ask the poster to retract their comments or if they refuse they must provide thier personal details to enable legal pursuit

My position is merely one of respect and reason. If you post in a respectful manner and have reasonably exhausted other avenues then I see no issue for anything to be moderated. What I won’t tolerate is witch hunts and every Tom dick and Harry sticking the knife in if the tuner in question hasn’t responded.

Often a tuner won’t respond due to legal advice so my job is to be moderate. To be impartial and to be fair to all involved.

With regards protecting users from ‘rogue’ traders. If we took that view, where a bad experience equals removal from the forum, we genuinely wouldnt have any tuners on board. Unfortunately I think it’s impossible to spend big money with a tuner and not end up disappointed in the long run.

Completely agree with you Mook.

Everything you have said makes sense.

It’s not fair for someone to just come on here if they got what they have asked, agreed and paid for and they are just coming on here to slander and bitch because they do not like someone.

But in this case it’s far from that truth and you will see soon enough.

Plus there is no mention on here of any trader as yet and any one can assume anything they like for now.

Now if you have been threatened in the back ground, again not to worry that should be enough to make you think hmmm cause I am overly confident in this case of the outcome and I do mean overly confident.

There can be only 2 outcomes in this situation for the them and 3 in my eyes for myself.

1. You will either see this situation rectified or 2. you will see them fold either way people need to know the truth which does bloody hurt and suck as no one wants to face this kind of reality but IMHO even if I lose in monetary value I shall not lose in Principle and 3. if I prevent anyone else from losing their hard earned money and or prevent a catastrophe to their vehicle and dreams in the long run by spreading awareness then this will also give me the great pleasure of winning!!!!

Then I will put it down to a stupid very expensive and naive (very trusting) mistake that I will never forget

Put it this way I openly admit to all I became a fanboy because I was sucked into a fake friendship and then I was brainwashed or duped into believing I had “Gods gift of tuners” to then have my dreams crushed by the very same people who extremely over promised and extremely undelivered for a substantial amount of money (greed) and it takes a lot for someone to admit that especially publicly.

But I am MAN enough to admit this, also I’m very sorry to anyone I have ever offended on this forum because I stuck up for them because I was blind.

It’s a shame they are not as the timescale and patience has been more than ample enough in my eyes or any legal system for plenty of opportunity for this situation to be rectified.

But where do I/you/we draw the line in throwing time and or money at a situation when there is no competence involved?

This is the last resort that I or anyone should or want/need to take and I think anyone would agree to that, as the word amicable springs to my mind but in this day and age it is seizing to exist.

Kind regards

Nick.
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Old 30th July 2019, 08:12 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I think you'll see this as being aimed at you personally Mook, it's not intended that way but I understand how me asking questions of the forum are directed at you so become personal by default.

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The law states that if you post something that someone else feels is defamatory or otherwise, they can either ask the poster to retract their comments or if they refuse they must provide their personal details to enable legal pursuit
I do believe you just opened the door Mook for finally admitting that the user's posts aren't the responsibility of the forum owner, site administrators or moderators.

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Originally Posted by Mookistar View Post
My issue is this. once the claims or accusations are made they can cause damage whether of not they are true. Any user could potentially make libellous and defaming comments which, even if proven false in court, will have been seen and aired in public. Like the recent Operation Yewtree thing. Even though some of the people have been cleared, we all secretly think "he's a paedo"

Same on here. For every unhappy customer there could be 100's of happy ones, but because that unhappy guy kicks off, the damage is ten fold that of a positive endorsement.

So, it will need policing. I think it will take the form of a locked forum in which only Tuners and Op's can reply to threads. that'll keep the oars out and ensure people fight their battles themselves.

It'll also come with a legal position and format suggestion.

There has to be involvement from me and my team because it's not fair to let the mob rule.

Mook
I haven't really navigated the forum other than hitting the "new post" button for years - did this ever get implemented?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookistar View Post
My position is merely one of respect and reason. If you post in a respectful manner and have reasonably exhausted other avenues then I see no issue for anything to be moderated. What I won’t tolerate is witch hunts and every Tom dick and Harry sticking the knife in if the tuner in question hasn’t responded.
So, Amanda (who's had success btw), Tal and now Nick, along with countless others who've had posts or threads deleted can post respectfully but factually about their issues and you will honour that statement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookistar View Post
Often a tuner won’t respond due to legal advice so my job is to be moderate. To be impartial and to be fair to all involved.
I secretly won the EuroMillions and bought the "holy trinity" last week, La Fez, P1 and 918. Did you not check to see? It's very obviously BS by the way, often like the threat of legal action you receive. Can you post evidence to substantiate why you need to moderate, surely by now you must have a huge collection of solicitors letters? I'd be interested in seeing the redacted versions, similar to what I sent you when you disbelieved a tuner had legal action suit against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookistar View Post
With regards protecting users from ‘rogue’ traders. If we took that view, where a bad experience equals removal from the forum, we genuinely wouldn't have any tuners on board.
I don't believe any trader sets out to be 'rogue', I believe they hit issues they just can't handle technically or don't want the general public to know. Often this appears like they've ripped someone off or delivered poor service. There's no need to remove any sponsor but there is a need to paint a balanced picture, everyone makes mistakes but reading back through the history on here, the vast majority are upheld as tuning gods. What's wrong with a bit of direct competition, pull your socks up or the business goes elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookistar View Post
Unfortunately I think it’s impossible to spend big money with a tuner and not end up disappointed in the long run.
I think it is. So long as the scope and pitfalls are clearly defined.
Yes, these old cars/engines are capable of running extremely large power figures BUT with that comes increased maintenance and failure rates; if you're pre-armed with the correct information, the decision to tune and the associated pitfalls becomes clearer; linking back to the OPs original post...
GTRNICK likes this.
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