[fr0sty]

the only category i would see massive boost to be needed is either methanol dragster with huge turbo or

this!! YouTube - John Deere super stock tractor pull @ Washington County Fair John Raymond someone wanna guess how high of boost or pressure ratio those pro tractor runs ????


its all about cooling that air that enters and then the possibility are endless .... compound turbocharging is the key!!! can it be done on a gasoline engine???? yes... will it require massive cooling yes... pro: endless pressure ratio as long as engine old.. con: octane or make sure the intake air temp is kept in check.. and by alot...


here's a tractor blowing his head!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mrcjKYAUM8 too much boost i guess LOLL nice turbo whistle sound

 

[EndlessR]

the only category i would see massive boost to be needed is either methanol dragster with huge turbo or

this!! YouTube - John Deere super stock tractor pull @ Washington County Fair John Raymond someone wanna guess how high of boost or pressure ratio those pro tractor runs ????

Funny you mention that, have you seen this dragster?
YouTube - 2 Guys Garage Diesel Dragster Segment

Diesel and runs 5.5bar through twin charging....runs 7sec too..lol...too huge Holset turbos

Other needs for high p/r are high altitude applications, but as Holset said, wheel speeds are pretty much at their maximum due to reliability issuse of the aluminum wheels, so now 2 stage turbo charging is being used.

 

[tuRBy]

interesting info. :thumbsup:

as an addition to the thread, what is the max boost that can be safely run on uk 99octane [tesco or v-power].[without meth/water injection] air-2-air IC.

if its different for various engines that info would be usefull, but mainly after the figures for RB26-31

say standard 8.5 comp ratio, could 8:0 compression ratio be able to run *alot* more boost?

 

[fr0sty]

those pressure ratio are the lowest in the diesel application... tractor run on average 100psi on the stock like class and upwards of 200+ on pro multi turbo class .... when the day either a skyline or supra will run a real setup like that to at least 100 psi reccord will fall with ease ....

interesting info. :thumbsup:

as an addition to the thread, what is the max boost that can be safely run on uk 99octane [tesco or v-power].[without meth/water injection] air-2-air IC.

if its different for various engines that info would be usefull, but mainly after the figures for RB26-31

say standard 8.5 comp ratio, could 8:0 compression ratio be able to run *alot* more boost?

well you could in theory run limitless amount of boost.. but you would have to cool the intake charge to take into account the heating issue caused by compression + turbocharging but in theory its all possible.. and max boost cant be said.. its a mather of how far a tuner can take your map on the safe side .....

 

[tuRBy]

well you could in theory run limitless amount of boost.. but you would have to cool the intake charge to take into account the heating issue caused by compression + turbocharging but in theory its all possible.. and max boost cant be said.. its a mather of how far a tuner can take your map on the safe side .....

i've seen evo's dyno on uk 99octane at 2.3bar without det, 2,5 bar with 120octane ok,

just thinking about the RB 8.5:0 and 8:0 compression, no fancy tricks, turbo kit, fuel kit, big intercooler thats it....

[i know nitrous/ meth /+ water injection helps but just on the above? whats the RB-engine RB26-31 max boost safely on uk 99 octane @ x.x:x compression ratio?]

 

[R.I.P.S NZ]

Thats why the GT42 makes is maximum flow at 2.4bar...on any car at sea level.

How can that be?? The 2.4 bar is just a measure of resistance, one engine could be consuming alot more air at 2.4 bar than another.

Ludders engine for example is making far more power than the turbo is "rated to" at under 8000rpm and under 2 bar, you can also see by the power curve the turbo is now too small as it is maxed out so we can't push it any further.

Your theory is kind of on the right track I suppose but you can be sure, and I guarantee you Liths information is correct as I pit next to Reece and Andre and talk to these guys alot, they ARE running 40-50psi of boost and ARE making alot more power than the turbo's are rated to and they WOULD be running much bigger turbo's at much lower boost if they thought that was the way to go quicker.

Keep in mind, the lancer ran 180mph on the 1/4 with around 20% LESS power than it had on its last outing when the transfere case broke and Reece has run 190mph on the 1/4 with over 1350kg with a turbo rated to much less than the power required to do that mph.

There's obviously much more to it than a compressor efficiency map on a piece of paper.

Rob

 

[Lith]

Lith I was reffering to the AMS lancer and the GT42map and the unrealistic psi they said they were making full power at.

If the compressor map went directly up like they do on some other compressor maps to 4.5 (almost vertical) then I would understand.

But I am saying "bullshit" to making most power running 4.5p/r on GT42 as max flow is crap at that pressure ratio due to the max speed of the wheel, which is 105,452rpm......you cannot exceed the wheel speed, no one car, and no 2.0ltr engine with a high VE would make peak power there on the turbo. The dyno would show a sever drop in power as over that speed the turbo is in the choke area.

No you referred to the dyno plot I posted and said it was a happy dyno, I gave proof that it is making huge power at huge boost levels from the fact it cuts the numbers on the drag strip. You specifically stated the T51R is beyond its best after 2.2bar, yet the EVO I referred to ran 180mph on one at around 2.6bar and then got good gains from going up in boost pressure.

 

[EndlessR]

How can that be?? The 2.4 bar is just a measure of resistance, one engine could be consuming alot more air at 2.4 bar than another.

Ludders engine for example is making far more power than the turbo is "rated to" at under 8000rpm and under 2 bar, you can also see by the power curve the turbo is now too small as it is maxed out so we can't push it any further.

Your theory is kind of on the right track I suppose but you can be sure, and I guarantee you Liths information is correct as I pit next to Reece and Andre and talk to these guys alot, they ARE running 40-50psi of boost and ARE making alot more power than the turbo's are rated to and they WOULD be running much bigger turbo's at much lower boost if they thought that was the way to go quicker.

Keep in mind, the lancer ran 180mph on the 1/4 with around 20% LESS power than it had on its last outing when the transfere case broke and Reece has run 190mph on the 1/4 with over 1350kg with a turbo rated to much less than the power required to do that mph.

There's obviously much more to it than a compressor efficiency map on a piece of paper.

Rob

Rob, I am just stating that its impossible to exceed a compressor wheel speed design, because you either have surge to the left, or choke to the right, either is very very bad when trying to make power.....because it won`t.
And the pieces of paper that Garrett provide, are either "it will or it wont"

Another example:

Simon Norris (a well know English Lancer tuner) made 1033.9hp @ 3.1bar at the fly on his 2.3ltr lancer engine with GT42 at 7440rpm
I took the dyno data and engine data which is available from the plot and put it in the image here,
Actual data, read that Simon turned boost up at end of run hence 3.1 plot (not full run)

His own engine (video) made 928hp @ 2.7bar (think on GT42 also)
He also rates his GT42 turbo kits from 1.4bar~3.0bar

What Lith is saying to me is NZ Tuner is running GT42 turbo, running 3.5bar boost (4.5bar pressure ratio) to make power. What I am saying is its impossible for that compressor

A little working out, I can believe the cars can make the power, and naturally believe the times that are running, what I cant believe is an identical evo (drag spec) (and I made 1998cc to try to reason with Lith, as if it was 2.3ltr the engine would be using even more lbs/min @ that p/r)

Again, can see the power, can see how he makes the 1160hp @ wheels with methonal, just he can`t be doing it with 4.5p/r and only 82lbs air, he would at least need at least 100lbs/min.

So I am still saying, No you can not exceed a compressor wheel speed, even if your a record holder from NZ, or chuck norris

Error made on "Lith Lancer" its actually 51.45psi, not 66psi

So in thoery what your also saying is, Norris knows nothing about Evo Tunning

 

[R.I.P.S NZ]

I havn't said anything about anyone not knowing how to tune and I'm not involved in the discussions between you and Lith, all I know is the power I make and at what boost and with what turbo.

What Reece and Andre do I can only tell you, as lith has, what we believe to be true and what we have been told BY THEM (horses mouth as Lith says) and we have absolutly no reason to dought them.

There MUST be a reason why the choose to run 40-50psi of boost with a particular turbo over running a much bigger turbo at lower boost, simple as that.

Trying your hardest to show that they are either lying or going backwards in power by exceeding a certain amount of boost is pointless, they have the records and obviously know a thing or 2 about what works and what doesn't and I can't see any reason they would tell everyone they run X amount of boost if they wern't.

Maybe Reece will see this and comment.....

With the Garrett pieces of paper saying it either will or it won't, and this is a genuine question, how do you explain Ludders running 150+mph at 1740kg with a stock, off the shelf GT42 turbo with no NOS, No Meth and 156+mph with a 75 shot?

Rob

 

[EndlessR]

No you referred to the dyno plot I posted and said it was a happy dyno, I gave proof that it is making huge power at huge boost levels from the fact it cuts the numbers on the drag strip. You specifically stated the T51R is beyond its best after 2.2bar, yet the EVO I referred to ran 180mph on one at around 2.6bar and then got good gains from going up in boost pressure.

Unless the T51-R has a different wheel profile / compresor map than the GT42
with a different max pressure ratio, then its still a no go....power I understand and agree with, as everything else, but to make 1400flywheel horsepower from 82lbs/min air......com on....really is that possible...

You have got to see the facts, hence why I said all wheel HP dynos are friendly, good to get an idea of whats happening, but shoudnt be taken factually as there are also so many variable, no slip on dyna pack, so people always get high readings when compaired to conventional dynos, which makes it difficult to compare cars power on different dynos as they are not equal.

For me engine dyno is best, to get idea of actual engine power as its one of the only controlled enviorments where you can run multiple back to back tests.

 

[Lith]

Err, don't use my line in regards to Norris... I said nothing about him, and nothing I have said implies what he has done doesn't make sense. His setup isn't equivalent for a start.

If you are so stuck on calling all compressor charts as an absolute gospel, go check a GT4088R compressor map and then look around and see how much boost people are pushing through those on EVOs around the place and try and work out if the numbers add up.

Another one of my favourite compressor maps:
ATP TURBO - The Premiere Provider of Turbocharging Components

Gotta wonder why people aren't putting them on small motors (or as twins) and making crazy power figures, eh?

And why are you so stuck on dyno figures, Heat Treatments did 7.57 @ 190mph with a GT45R... could always ask them if they were running 1.7bar?

 

[EndlessR]

I havn't said anything about anyone not knowing how to tune and I'm not involved in the discussions between you and Lith, all I know is the power I make and at what boost and with what turbo.

What Reece and Andre do I can only tell you, as lith has, what we believe to be true and what we have been told BY THEM (horses mouth as Lith says) and we have absolutly no reason to dought them.

There MUST be a reason why the choose to run 40-50psi of boost with a particular turbo over running a much bigger turbo at lower boost, simple as that.

Trying your hardest to show that they are either lying or going backwards in power by exceeding a certain amount of boost is pointless, they have the records and obviously know a thing or 2 about what works and what doesn't and I can't see any reason they would tell everyone they run X amount of boost if they wern't.

Maybe Reece will see this and comment.....

Rob

I havent ever, but you said maybe its a NZ thing, and you said there is more to compressor maps, tuning aside.....(and I havent even seen Reeces engine or turbo) as I have no idea of what he is running or boost.

All I am saying is a compressor map is a compressor map, you CANNOT exceed the maximum compressor wheel speed and expect / claim you are making power.

If Norris can make 1000hp with the turbo @ 3.1bar, why would a NZ tuner feel the need to run even more boost when the tip of the compressor is tiny, if the compressor may was way over (and it may be as it could be the HKS T51-R may have a compleatly different compressor map to the GT42 which would answer the huge blank there is)

Could be that, I dont know as HKS do not provide compressor maps,

 

[R.I.P.S NZ]

Unless the T51-R has a different wheel profile / compresor map than the GT42
with a different max pressure ratio, then its still a no go....power I understand and agree with, as everything else, but to make 1400flywheel horsepower from 82lbs/min air......com on....really is that possible...

I damaged a T51spl core and got a GT42 core with wheels in all and it went straight in, no mods, looked identicle so I'm pretty sure they arn't different or if they are its extreemly minor.

With regards to the lancer, for a 1150kg car to run 180mph on the 1/4 requires a minimum of 1100whp, there is no question he has run 180mph, there is no question as to the weight, there is also no question as to the turbo so clearly it is "possible" and the whp figures from his dyno are in fact bang on for what is required.

If he had dyno's of 1150whp and was running high 8s at 160 or something then sure, you have a point, but come on, 180mph in a car that rolls off the line gently and then just absolutly f&*ks off is clearly making some serious boogie no matter how many pounds of air you say its turbo can make.

Rob

 

[EndlessR]

Err, don't use my line in regards to Norris... I said nothing about him, and nothing I have said implies what he has done doesn't make sense. His setup isn't equivalent for a start.

If you are so stuck on calling all compressor charts as an absolute gospel, go check a GT4088R compressor map and then look around and see how much boost people are pushing through those on EVOs around the place and try and work out if the numbers add up.

Another one of my favourite compressor maps:
ATP TURBO - The Premiere Provider of Turbocharging Components

Gotta wonder why people aren't putting them on small motors (or as twins) and making crazy power figures, eh?

I was not using your engine or his to better eachother, but used his to gain the data from a 4G63 thats also made 1000hp and see what the differences are, It gave a base figure which to calculate from.........

Are you saying you can exceed the maximum compressor wheel speed and make power?

All of this may be in vain, as HKS T51-R may have different map to GT42, and if it map allows a higher P/R say 5.5 and compressor wheel doesnt curve so much like the GT42, then I can see how the lancer may make power, especially if he has a lesser VE, and normal displacement....I see how he will need to run more psi to expand his power band / make power. But this is dependant on the factor that the compressor wheel will allow it too happen without falling into choke, which is what you can see happening with the GT42.....power would drop off.

As for the ATP turbo map, looks ok but the surge line is poor, must not be a ported housing?

 

[R.I.P.S NZ]

Heat Treatments did 7.57 @ 190mph with a GT45R... could always ask them if they were running 1.7bar?

Agreed......

EndlessR........HTL GTR ....190mph in 1350kg needs at least 1600whp and yet the turbo is "rated" to only 1200bhp (around 1000whp) WTF???

My 240z needed at least 1200whp to run 7.8 @ 177mph, also done with an off the shelf 1000whp GT45 @ 2.3 bar, no Meth, WTF??

I'm pretty sure Reece would have been running ALOT more boost than me to get the extra 400whp from a smaller capacity engine and without the aid of NOS.

These are all facts, despite the paper and what it says, these were both world record runs that actually happened, with plenty of proof. WTF??

Are you saying Reece had a GT60 put into his GT45 housing and was running real low boost?

Rob

 

[EndlessR]

I damaged a T51spl core and got a GT42 core with wheels in all and it went straight in, no mods, looked identicle so I'm pretty sure they arn't different or if they are its extreemly minor.

With regards to the lancer, for a 1150kg car to run 180mph on the 1/4 requires a minimum of 1100whp, there is no question he has run 180mph, there is no question as to the weight, there is also no question as to the turbo so clearly it is "possible" and the whp figures from his dyno are in fact bang on for what is required.

If he had dyno's of 1150whp and was running high 8s at 160 or something then sure, you have a point, but come on, 180mph in a car that rolls off the line gently and then just absolutly f&*ks off is clearly making some serious boogie no matter how many pounds of air you say its turbo can make.

Rob

Compressor wheel maybe slighty Rob,

Re the lancer, I totally understand the power, and I agree, its also of power, as I calculated....yes yes yes the power is all possible and he will need it,

What I am saying is he must have done it with at lower boost if he is using the GT42 compressor wheel. Because there is 100% no advantage for using 3.5bar unless your race track is up a mountain where baro presure is vastly different, or he has a different compressor wheel in there, one that does allow him to flow 110lbs/min @ 9000rpm.

 

[R.I.P.S NZ]

Ok, how about Ludders Drag-r and my 240z, we know 100% for a fact what turbo's they have and the specs (stock GT42 and stock GT45), how are the results both those cars had possible then?

Rob

 

[EndlessR]

Ok, how about Ludders Drag-r and my 240z, we know 100% for a fact what turbo's they have and the specs (stock GT42 and stock GT45), how are the results both those cars had possible then?

Rob

Yes, you said you ran 2.0bar boost on ludders car, 2.3bar boost/3.3p/r check the compressor map on that turbo, its where it makes the most flow, 95lbs/min Perfect!!......the larger GT45 compressor doesnt have a high a P/R ratio as GT42 but its flow is also excellent 2.0bar = 112lbs/min.

Give me the data and can look at some numbers for your cars, would be interesting to see the power / VE they have.

 

[EndlessR]

Agreed......

EndlessR........HTL GTR ....190mph in 1350kg needs at least 1600whp and yet the turbo is "rated" to only 1200bhp (around 1000whp) WTF???

My 240z needed at least 1200whp to run 7.8 @ 177mph, also done with an off the shelf 1000whp GT45 @ 2.3 bar, no Meth, WTF??

I'm pretty sure Reece would have been running ALOT more boost than me to get the extra 400whp from a smaller capacity engine and without the aid of NOS.

These are all facts, despite the paper and what it says, these were both world record runs that actually happened, with plenty of proof. WTF??

Are you saying Reece had a GT60 put into his GT45 housing and was running real low boost?

Rob

Sorry missed this one,

I have seen the photos of reece car, and 1350kg seems very heavy for a car of that class woudnt you say? Considering the extensive modifications it has, Over here we have GTRs that were weighed less than 1200kg and had less light weight modifications that HTL car.
R32 street car is 1200kg 1270kg with driver........

HKS R33 GTR weighed in at a tad under 1000kg, their power was 950hp~1000hp, 1hp=1kg despite their clames of 1300kg / 1300hp, they ran 1.7bar on the 3540s....it was made for relilability, so the above numbers were also lies, They went dangerously light on the chassi to the point where Kawazaki san he would not drive it if they turned the boost up. The roll cage was so thin, previously in Japan we had to check the thickness of the rollcage by a small hole (diameter) in the cage (measure the thickness) well HKS cage was so thin they only had reguation thickness on the hole where the cage was previously measured. Now there are electronic testers that check the thickness, and HKS were rumballed. I think thats the single reason HKS never got to run against HTL, and why they had to withdraw from the compertition.

You see, all tuners misslead about power and weight, we do it in our commercials in Japan, 900hp....because other customers / tuners see the numbers and think, wow how are they winning with only 900hp, must be a great car etc etc. Thats racing, and tuners try to kee as much to their cheat as possible.

If I use the same basic data that Simon Norris made on his Evo, and add 110lb/min air, I get 1223hp@fly, then add the 14% for methanol circa 1400hp, minus the 15% drivetrain loss 1190hp @ wheels (and that is on a 1.0VE engine) meaning if HKS ran a 7.7sec with 1.1ratio, then it would be perfectly easy for reece to exceed that if his car actually weighs 1190kg with driver or less. Thats only a rough guess, but yes he can run only 2.0bar on the GT45 with methanol and still run the numbers.

Please the 1/4mile conversions you go on about, they are like the figures I am going on about, our own conversions etc, there are naturally going to be flaws in them, like this one...its close but not 100%

1/4 Mile ET Calculator
1200kg 2645lbs
1400hp flywheel
1/4mile 7.59sec

And again with ET
http://www.race-cars.net/calculators/et_calculator.html
1200kg/2645lbs
trap speed 191mh
power: 1430whp......

Think half empty half full, its normal marketing

Still fantastic times, and car would still have the same power to weight which is whats important

When you get a change, have a look at garretts home page, alot to be learnt about compressor maps
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech103.html

 

[R.I.P.S NZ]

Reece's car is definatly at least 1350kg at race weight, if you had a close look at it and saw all the gear that is in it you would have no problem believing it.

Anyway, untill Reece, Andre or others who do run 40-50+psi of boost comment we arn't really getting anywhere.

There's just too many people running (or claiming to run) 35-50psi of boost or more for them all to be talking rubbish.

Look at the old formular one cars of the 80s, they ran 40-50psi at least and reliably, why would they do that if it was better to run bigger turbo's at much lower boost?

Rob