[Papa Smurf]

Thought I would share with you the results of the new 2014 Alcon Superkit test that Jake Hill and I undertook last weekend at Silverstone on the Grand Prix Track.

As I appear to be excessively hard on my brakes (and tyres) I was asked to conduct this test and please read the results on the GTROC website - link below....

Alcon Superkit Test

Any questions please ask or PM me

John M

 

[FRRACER]

Interesting test, but some what inconclusive back to back testing should have been done with new discs and pads on the same day by the same driver. I am not saying the kit is no good but seems more like a magazine review promoting a brand and company.

 

[Papa Smurf]

I take your point but did state in the write up that this was not a scientific test. The brakes had only been bedded in and were as good a new having done about 120 miles of careful bedding in apart from two laps at Bedford to ensure that the last bits of air had been bled out the system.

This test was compared against the Performance Friction test done last year which was similarly undertaken by Jake Hill and myself.

These tests are done for GT-R owners and the club members who sometimes track their cars and cannot be scientific as those done on an official test day when timing and telemetry are fully permitted.

I still believe that the OEM set up is fine for daily use and some spirited driving, but for the occasional track use and harder driving then the AP slotted discs with Ferodo 2500 pads are fine. However, for hard track use then the Performance Friction set up or standard Alcon kit should be considered, and for the few that are doing up to 20 track events a year then the Alcon Superkit has to be considered.

I am not paid to do these tests and use my own car for the evaluations.

 

[Blade]

Great work John. Must admit to being sat on the fence on brakes and you are tipping me over it. Having been driving my m3 gts I realise how the gtr brakes are a step below.

Thinking carbon ceramics though.

 

[FRRACER]

Has there been any back to back tests done between the Alcon super kit calipers and the std brembos? I know Alcon do a race spec range which are superior as I believe they are nickel plated? But I do not believe there is a massive difference between the two calipers in terms of performance. They may be oem but does not make them inferior to the degree most people claim. Further more many people would run out of braking talent before the brembo gives up..

Except for Jake in this instance who would be using the brakes to their full use and would be able to identify the difference. I agree the oe discs are poor in their design and performance as are the pads. When you think a set of Alcons in form of a super kit is almost 10k it is a lot of money and I wonder how much is down to hype and sales and marketing tactics.

Funny thing is people are spending thousands on brakes and half of them do not know how to use them, they are either burning them up, or cracking the discs, in which case they are simply wasting their money.

 

[Blade]

I agree. For me it's a question of feel and trust. I'm currently using the MY11 discs and RS29 pads and they are OK, but the initial bite is not there and I never really feel massively confident with the brakes as they seem inconsistent from one lap to another - i.e. will they be there at 160+ at the end of the Hangar Straight?

I don't think I would buy the Steel Superkit on any basis, but it makes sense for John as he does that many track days that the reduced wear and the apparent consistency of braking would net off for him. I can't see the point for casual track day users or road users and if you read his article, that is what he says - most folk, APs+Ferodos, reasonable track users, PFC discs+pads, track loonies like him - Alcons.

The carbon ceramics do make sense to me as they give a handling improvement as well and are even more consistent again in braking terms. I would rather spend money on those than turbos!

The initial bite on the Alcons is extremely good, almost too good for road use.

 

[grahamc]

What about the Stillen Carbon Ceramic discs that go with the standard calipers?

 

[Adamantium]

will they be there at 160+ at the end of the Hangar Straight?

It's this ^ that makes them amazing. You can forget about braking concern, they are just there always.

That alone made them worth it for me. The CCX have the additional unsprung and rotating mass advantage on top, but even without that this is where the difference lies. As for the stock calipers being fine, the solidity of the pedal in normal use suggests that there is at least some difference.

I still maintain that out of all the mods I have done, the Superkit is the best, although the turbos run it a close second.

 

[CT17]

Yes, I was a big fan of my Iron Superkit as it really gave me the confidence to brake late every single time.
I also found it very usuable on the road, it never felt too harsh.

It's just a shame the kit is so expensive because whichever way I lookt at it a list price of £10,000 for a set of four calipers, discs and pads is a bit excessive.

 

[grahamc]

...
It's just a shame the kit is so expensive because whichever way I lookt at it a list price of £10,000 for a set of four calipers, discs and pads is a bit excessive.

Completely agree.... cannot justify 10k for brakes on a sub 60k car.

 

[davewilkins]

I am shocked at 10k. That is some brake upgrade. I have been reading the test with interest. I do run the pagid pads on dba discs on my 32 but this setup on the 35 sounds awesome. I guess you get what you pay for.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Interesting feedback as I expected and wanted.

I will use this kit to it's maximum because of the number of track events that I do and the fact that although I am now better at being more sympathetic towards the brakes, I still take them to the limit and sometimes beyond.

I agree with all of the comments about the right kit for the right usage, and can only comment from my own experience and that of Jake's. We have compared the standard discs against the PF set and using the data we have a good bit of information regarding the performance, fade, brake feel, G forces and CONFIDENCE. The reason we do not post up the V Box results is because we do these tests on a track day, and I have made the error in the past of placing the information on the forum which led me into hot water.
In the end, it is a personal thing and for the occasional track user then the AP kit with Ferodo pads is spot on.

As far as price is concerned, please speak to Litchfield's as there is a very special deal for GTROC members and Iain cannot publicise his prices on the forum or shop as Alcon are quite protective about the product and it's quality through research and development etc etc. It is a bit like quoting a discount on a McLaren 12c that most people believe is sold at full retail money and sometimes plus a bit, whilst in reality the deals around the motor trade are somewhat different!

If I could afford the Carbon Ceramics then I would, but I cannot justify the cost and I wouldn't be able to continue complaining about the cost of the wife's damn horses.

For interest sake, I can confirm that Jake Hill will be out racing this weekend at the BTCC Brands Hatch driving a new Porsche Carrera Cup in the two fully televised races on Sunday. Live at about 11am and 4pm on ITV4 and ITV4 HD

 

[AlexGTR]

ummmm anyone tired an xp20 pad,ap groved rotor and a stock bell? i've yet to sit in with someone that is able to drive upto or beyond the limit of this set up round silverstone or donnington

pretty sure wingless we have seen over 170 on the hanger too does not mean much as you can carry alot of speed in to stow as its a late apex not really a big fade area like vale or coming in to the Arena

i drive cars on ceramic all day on track and on the road i still think this set up on rains gtr is better i can only talk of experience i have also driven a gtr on the alcon superkit gen 1 yes its better feel but i can stil get the same result just adapting my braking with the ap/xp set up and have money for 2way coilovers and downsizing to 18" and running a 315 r888 all round

personally i think its a waste but in the car park meets it looks great but really 99% of people on here don't need it

not trying to to put anything down i'm sure the kit is fantastic it just my opinion based on gtr amateur track drivers

 

[Papa Smurf]

I agree with you as I have tried that set up on my first GT-R and found it really good with the standard stock bell. Whether it is using XP20 or Ferodo 2500, they are fantastic brakes. The XP20 can be a bit more aggressive and create some noise but they are good.

The real test is Bruntingthorpe where the double apex after the long straight requires extreme braking and that was the time the AP's and Ferodo package gave me a slight rear valve moment! The speeds down that straight are up to 190mph on speedo (178mph on V Box) and that does require some stopping.

There are a few GT-R 'amateur' track drivers that are quite rapid and should not be underestimated. Maybe not up to full race GP2 or LMP1 but still rapid.

 

[grahamc]

Interesting feedback as I expected and wanted.

I will use this kit to it's maximum because of the number of track events that I do and the fact that although I am now better at being more sympathetic towards the brakes, I still take them to the limit and sometimes beyond.

I agree with all of the comments about the right kit for the right usage, and can only comment from my own experience and that of Jake's. We have compared the standard discs against the PF set and using the data we have a good bit of information regarding the performance, fade, brake feel, G forces and CONFIDENCE. The reason we do not post up the V Box results is because we do these tests on a track day, and I have made the error in the past of placing the information on the forum which led me into hot water.
In the end, it is a personal thing and for the occasional track user then the AP kit with Ferodo pads is spot on.

As far as price is concerned, please speak to Litchfield's as there is a very special deal for GTROC members and Iain cannot publicise his prices on the forum or shop as Alcon are quite protective about the product and it's quality through research and development etc etc. It is a bit like quoting a discount on a McLaren 12c that most people believe is sold at full retail money and sometimes plus a bit, whilst in reality the deals around the motor trade are somewhat different!

If I could afford the Carbon Ceramics then I would, but I cannot justify the cost and I wouldn't be able to continue complaining about the cost of the wife's damn horses.

For interest sake, I can confirm that Jake Hill will be out racing this weekend at the BTCC Brands Hatch driving a new Porsche Carrera Cup in the two fully televised races on Sunday. Live at about 11am and 4pm on ITV4 and ITV4 HD

Would definitely like to know how they stack up over time....

Awesome news for Jake!! Will be watching on TV!

 

[FRRACER]

ummmm anyone tired an xp20 pad,ap groved rotor and a stock bell? i've yet to sit in with someone that is able to drive upto or beyond the limit of this set up round silverstone or donnington

pretty sure wingless we have seen over 170 on the hanger too does not mean much as you can carry alot of speed in to stow as its a late apex not really a big fade area like vale or coming in to the Arena

i drive cars on ceramic all day on track and on the road i still think this set up on rains gtr is better i can only talk of experience i have also driven a gtr on the alcon superkit gen 1 yes its better feel but i can stil get the same result just adapting my braking with the ap/xp set up and have money for 2way coilovers and downsizing to 18" and running a 315 r888 all round

personally i think its a waste but in the car park meets it looks great but really 99% of people on here don't need it

not trying to to put anything down i'm sure the kit is fantastic it just my opinion based on gtr amateur track drivers

Totally agree with you mate.

What setup does Rain have?

 

[Blade]

I think one of the things that pro drivers forget is that they are comfortable driving any old P.O.S to 10/10ths, where as amateurs are not.

It is surprising how much quicker an amateur will go with that extra bit of confidence and feel, and more to the point predictability.

For those people who are NOT driving on track day-in, day-out or blessed with natural talents, having a predictable platform underneath you is a good thing.

It's irrelevant whether the hardware is capable of performing the same with amateurs, it is more relevant how they feel they can perform with the hardware they have.

The thing I like about Carbon ceramics when they work is the predictability. In any event, if one can afford them - why not? You can extend the argument of can you use it to everything with the GTR. Who can use the available power and grip it has as standard?

Justifiability is a personal decision.