Mechanical fuel pump AFAIK

 

Yup thats correct.

 

Great thread. Love looking at the photos of the group A r32's

 

Feels like Christmas all over again
thanks Alan for all the pics and info
saved myself a trip to Japan armed with a camera, as everbody else i asked never took any.
was beginning to think it was top secret and and nobody was allowed to take pics LOL

I'm very happy now

Ron

 

Eagle eyes there Ron!

 

Has there been any lap times around tsukuba?
from a gpA 32

Are most of the cars with collectors in Japan now?

 

Has there been any lap times around tsukuba?
from a gpA 32

I only have data for the in-period racing. I was at quite a few of the races myself. That's one of the reasons why I'm such a big fan of the cars....

Examples:

1990 JTC qualifying at Tsukuba:
Pole position went to the Reebok Skyline at 58" 218, with the Calsonic Skyline in second at 58" 401. Third was the Dunlop / Shimizu Sierra RS500 at 1' 00" 007.

1991 JTC qualifying at Tsukuba:
Pole went to the Calsonic Skyline, at 57" 733. Second was the Reebok Skyline at 58" 125, and third was the Taisan Klepper Skyline at 59" 090.

1992 JTC qualifying at Tsukuba:
Pole was the Calsonic Skyline at 57" 071, second was the Kyoseki Skyline at 57" 297. Third was the HKS Skyline at 57" 852.

1993 JTC qualifying at Tsukuba:
Pole was the HKS Skyline at 56" 933, second the Calsonic Skyline at 57" 971, and third the Kyoseki Skyline at 57" 417.

Most of the Tsukuba JTC rounds were between 140 and 150 laps in length, with obligatory driver changes.

 

Just looked, and all mine are from the back of the car....

 

Some footage:

YouTube - Nissan - 1990~93 BNR32 Skyline GT-R Group A History(1)

YouTube - Nissan - 1990~93 BNR32 Skyline GT-R Group A History(2)

YouTube - Nissan - 1990~93 BNR32 Skyline GT-R Group A History(3)

 

cool stuff there ,my gtr32 track car came fro japan with quantum suspension ,real good quality.nice to see all the old setups.

 

Does anyone have any measurements of Gp.A suspension parts like subframe(s), control arms, spindles and the like? This is something I might want to replicate on a long-term racing car project.

 

Does anyone have any group A suspension parts for sale?

 

Group A

Looking for Group A goose necks, does anyone know where some would be for sale or have dimensions for them?

 

Looking for Group A goose necks, does anyone know where some would be for sale or have dimensions for them?

Check with Glenn, Yoda had some GrpA parts floating about.

 

Group A

From what I have found out the Nismo Group A's were the only factory built cars, these where the real Group A cars, the Gibson Motorsport GTR's were made up locally out of some of their Group A parts. For example the rear suspension arms were different . I have both types and are using the Nismo stuff in my suspension. Also the Gibson ones didn't use the magnesium transfer case or the rear AP brakes (They used Harrop's) or carbon drive shafts etc

Here is a pic of my syspension arms, Group A Nismo on top and Group A Gibson on the bottom of the pic. Also the Nismo item uses stepped high misalignment shperials made by NMB Minebea (Make parts for Airbus and the Boeing 787) and the Gibson one doesn't.

Rear tie rod bracket also different on Gibson upright
Here is apic of a part I have

 

From what I have found out the Nismo Group A's were the only factory built cars, these where the real Group A cars, the Gibson Motorsport GTR's were made up locally out of some of their Group A parts. For example the rear suspension arms were different . I have both types and are using the Nismo stuff in my suspension. Also the Gibson ones didn't use the magnesium transfer case or the rear AP brakes (They used Harrop's) or carbon drive shafts etc

Here is a pic of my syspension arms, Group A Nismo on top and Group A Gibson on the bottom of the pic. Also the Nismo item uses stepped high misalignment shperials made by NMB Minebea (Make parts for Airbus and the Boeing 787) and the Gibson one doesn't.

Rear tie rod bracket also different on Gibson upright
Here is apic of a part I have

Hi mate what size are the tubes & rod ends on these ?

Nigel :thumbsup:

 

You lucky man!!!
Cheers for sharing!

bob

 

gearbox

Here is a Gibson Holinger gearbox I have, this is rare, one of only 3 made in this configuation (Magnesium bell housing), most were alloy and some were full magnesium. This one also has a very nice hydraulic release bearing system

Interesting thing is Gibson cars never had the magnesium transfer case or the CFRP driveshaft that Nismo had used

 

Where do you guys find all these parts and info. Would love to be able to get my hands on some. Incredible knowledge guys

 

First image is a page from the Ishida / Gran Prix Publishing R32 race development book, showing the 'Ext-Compl. Knuckle Arm' / "Gooseneck". The other three extra photos of the same parts I showed earlier. Admittedly they are a bit dirty and used, but they are genuine works Gr.A NISMO pieces with correct provenance.

As I've been saying, parts specs were developed and changed all the way through their in-period race life. Many of the things you are pointing out were detailed in the FIA papers as full amendments to the homologation. For example, there are at least four different versions of knuckles and the crossmembers changed three times before the end of '91. Have you got a full set of the A-5405 / JA-137 papers to refer to?

There is discussion / explanation of the works setup data in the Ishida book, so it's not a secret as such. Just it does not mean all that much on it's own, and can not necessarily be applied to any car that does not use all the relevant parts.

 

I have this book also, and it has some interesting info in it.

Can you see what I mean about the upper mount point not being offset.

I do think yours are originals, but I also think they may have been a development piece given the difference inappearance.

 

Great photos and very interesting period information, thanks.

As an aside if you were building a copy of a Group A car you would of course just copy or buy OE Group A parts, subject to availability, and budget, but if you were building a track car not subject to Group A's pretty stringent rules there are far better suspension and subframe set ups to give far better suspension kinematics, weight saving and ease of fabrication. I also concur, from quite a bit of race car restoration experience, that these parts would be in a constant flux of redevelopment, often minor and unworthy of re homologation, but sufficient to make spares packages frequently obsolete. F1 cars are even worse, their development, even in the eighties, was rampant, and makes finding spares a minefield, almost a lottery as to whether they'll fit if you don't have access to factory records.

I would love to see higher resolution images of the homologation sheets, would that be possible? I would be very grateful, thanks.

 

The Group A parts are no longer available, also according to my guy who worked there, the ownership structure of Nismo has changed.

Yes agreed, the group A setup is a compromise, from what I can see they have done their best to work within the restricted suspension pickup points, even going to such lengths as using high misalignment sphericals to great a more ideal mount point.
Agree if you wanted to create a better suspension package you would go to something like a double unequal length A arm setup and do away with the heavy components that were used in Group A.
The development I would imagine would be through minor incremental change, the restrictive nature of the factory innerguards (There is very limited room around the upper front suspension link and it also ends up at a very steep angle when the car is substatially lowered as in Group A) are the main factor here.
The fabricated goseneck in the shot above would require a different type of upper arm than is pictured in the Ishida book (Probably shorter without angled gusset) to be able to clear the space in the inner guard and allow enough upward travel of the suspension. From ride height the group A had 45mm travel up and 50mm droop, at full travel up the wheel almost touches the inner guard.

 

Cool, as a casual observer, I cant see where anyone is challenging anyones knowledge or authenticity.
Ps 30, I cant see how Pauls challenging what you say ( maybe I need reading lessons)
But if thats how you read it, I dont think that was how it was meant.....

Clearly you both have a few clues so this thread would be more helpfull if we all just stayed on track, which is discussing the hows and why's of the parts.
Ta

 

Not trying to wade into a conversation that I know a lot about...

But at a guess if there are imperial parts in there, they are more likely Gibson built bits.
Gibson would have used what was readily/locally available that is close to Nismo speced.

Australia is much like NZ in that most of the Motorsport grade suspension parts are USA derivative for the likes of Sprint cars, Drag cars etc.

Chris.

 

Would someone please continue to challenge PS30-SB's validity on all things groupA?
(in othe hope that eventually he'll be forced to publish all of his awesome data with regards to groupA spec sheets on here) and we can all enjoy reading/learning from it to our hearts content!
Cheers

Bob

 

I don't think there is any occasion to challenge the 'validity' of any of Alan's findings or paraphernalia. Maybe encourage Alan to be more forthcoming with his massive archive of knowledge and input.. We are at the end of the day talking about someone who has lived the culture, and the racing scene in depth. Been up close and personal with the cars, the drivers, the pedigree and origin of these cars and parts. There are more than obvious reasons why Alan is reluctant to share some sensative information, and it is more to do with how the culture of the Japanese contingency would percieve that sharing of knowledge rather than the fact that Nismo themselves would rather it wasn't shared.......In simple terms, Mr Kipling doesn't divulge his family recipies.
I have some paperwork here myself from some very respected members of Nismo from when i was researching the books about the set ups of some of the older race cars, and i must say that like the paperwork Alan has, like mine, doesn't support the fact that any imperial parts were used, or infact modified to be used with counterparts. I would too suggest that these parts in question were very possibly USA made for a totally different market and subsequently have made their way into various builds and set ups.

 

Chris, exacty what I thought too.
As soon as anyone mentions Japan and imperial my argumentative side sides kicking in ...
I suspect you are 100% right.

But I have myself done things like tapped out m10x1.25 captivated nuts in chassis's, to 7/16 unf simply because the thread is rooted and 7/16 unf is near as dammit to 11mm which is easily accomodated into a 10mm nut, but going to 12mm would be a total failure as there wouldnt be enough material to support it.
Im not making any predetermined suggestions on the out come of the imperial thing, but if you were going to the n'th degree for strength, if you do the calcs on what you do have available, you may want to go to the next size up ie: 12mm is only (say 10x) safety / failure mode, but to go to 12.7 is 15x for only a 5% weight increase etc:
And 14mm os just plain too big and too heavy....
Who knows..

 

Yup, That's what I thought Glenn, When I look around my family's motorsport workshop, anything that is to do with suspension arms/joints is always imperial, That is why I think if it is unf it will be Gibson built....It is off the shelf in NZ and Aussie, Unlike Metric Nismo parts, And being almost exactly the same, there would be no need to have them specially Homologated.

....I remember reading an article years ago after Fred Gibson retired from Motorsport, He told of times that they used to box up local made items in Nismo boxes to show the officials (There was an Intercooler that was mentioned in the article)

Chris.

 

Group A

I am sure the parts that I have in my possession are genuine Nismo parts, yes they are from the Gibson cars but has been said in various publications that Nismo japan sent them suspension over as a complete bolt in package. I also have arms that gibson have fabricated and there is a a difinate difference to the ones that I believe are Nismo items.

There is a chance that there were differences in various parts, for example Nismo offered the Group A car for sale to privateers for Y55,000,000 back in the early 90's and I am sure they would have had to settle ona spec before they deliered any sold units. But in addition to this they would have kept developing their works cars as would have Nissan Australia. Given Nissan Australia is owned by Nissan Japan then there was every chance that Nissan Aust received updates from Japan and technical assistance.

PB-30 is the parts list for the Nismo cars or the customer cars, do you know this detail?

Yes I agree the imperial sphericals are a weird thing to find on a Japanese part and this may have been done by Gibson, but would be strange given the fact that they continually had parts coming from Japan for their cars and to reengineer the hub and arms just because parts were available locally does not make much sense. So what I am saying is that the metric parts would have been easily available to them

Here is a few pics, you can see the part numbers on the hubs.
Front hub

Inserts and sleeves look total original without any secondary machining done to change them, there are no marks on the casting to indicate they have been removed either. (Any one is welcome to visit my office in Auckland and have a look if they like)

Nismo hydra formed arm, this is identical to those in Alan's pics, but it does have imperial inner sphericals.

Same part but made by Gibson, completely different and consistent with parts photograhed on their cars later in their racing years

Rear hub part number,

Rear hub

I believe these parts are actual genuine items and yes they can be altered during their life, but no more so than a parts list can be changed for different evolutions of car parts.
If they are not genuine then it would have cost Gibson (Nissan Australia) more than the originals were to purchase from Nismo and would not make any sense whatsoever.

 

Here is a few pics, you can see the part numbers on the hubs.
Front hub

Rear hub part number,

Are you sure they are part numbers? The letters A, B, C, D etc match up with the Type A, B, C, D etc as seen in the homologation papers, but the '9013' and '9015' numbers are not NISMO part numbers, and they don't match up with the kit list.

My immediate reaction - based on looking into 'kensaku' / QC control numbers on other, older, Japanese-manufactured cars and their components - is that these are QC control and/or 'life' dating stamps. The '90' could well be 1990, and the other numbers a day and month.

Not trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs or anything, but high-stress race componentry is often 'lifed' ( especially Magnesium castings like these hubs / uprights ) or at least marked with a birth/mnf/QC date to assist in assessment.

Unless you have any paperwork that would show it as a part number?

 

I don't doubt that the parts are genuine, But as Glenn mentioned, You might find that the Metric inserts were replaced by Gibson's when the factory ones wore out? As again, they would be much easier and cheaper to get.....Case in point are the Nismo vs Gibson Magnesium wheels, The Nismo wheels wore out so fast that Gibson got a local casting company to make the 5 spoke wheels they ran instead of buying the expensive Nismo items.

Either was it should be amazing when you are finished, I would love to have a look at it when you have it on the track.

 

I have had an interest race cars and performance engineering for a long time and agree about local content saving money, but if you had a look at the hubs there is no sign of secondary engineering being done at all. I have had a lot of race parts fabricated, machined over time and if you make a modification to them after they are removed from the machine that did the original job there will allways be tell tale marks mecause of very minor misallignment.

The sphericals will wear but I doubt the inserts would as they have a bolt in them when in use that should not move.

Gibson had their magnesium wheels made by Cast Alloy in Adelaide, apart from the Nismo supplied ones cracking, apparently they had issues with wheels coming loose so they enlarged the mounting nut size at the same time.(bore 72mm pitch of thread 2.5mm)
I have two sets of these here, they are quite light and the construction is not to bad given how old they are, but would not compare to a modern one made by Rays as used in ALMS.
I can understand high turnover parts being made locally but I don't think hubs fall into that category

Anyway this is just my opinion from looking at the parts but there have been other owners of these parts and only they will truely know.

If you are up in Auckland drop by and have a look if you like

 

Has anyone got an original Group A pedal box assembly? I am interested in the leverage ratio used. IE, pedal foot pad to pivot length V pedal pivot to master cylinder bias bar hole length. Thanks.

 

More photos of original NISMO parts in Japan: