However, I could believe that GMS might have requested that NISMO supply parts with GMS-specced Imperial fasteners, sphericals and etc. especially for GMS use. And I could well understand if GMS decided to make their own locally-sourced versions of certain components. Why? Well, take a look at the quoted prices for individual components on the kit list page I attached in my last post. Just a single RH inner upright ( NISMO part number43021-X0R60 ) cost 453,750 JPY ( plus tax! ) and the Titanium upper link collars were 8,000 JPY each and you needed 8 of them. It all adds up, and you'd need multiple spares too....

I would have thought some of the ex-GMS staff could clear this locally sourced / GMS-specced Imperial question up quite clearly if they were asked. And, come to think of it, what's on the ex-GMS cars now?


The part list must have been that available to customer cars also as it has been priced

Actually the pricing isn't too bad considering the amount of R & D carried out, if they were available certainly wouldn't stop me from ordering some (even taken into account inflation). As a comparison my brake setup cost about the same as these uprights per corner and they are only forged alluminium.

 

Some more group A stuff

Here is a sample of the Gibson/Nismo parts list.
It appeared to not have a parts price

Also a pic of the Nismo engine and gibson engine
Notice the modified engine mount Gibson Motorsport used to cure the problems they had with cracked blocks.

A good pic of the gibson rear suspension(I think this is off the 1992 car)

There seems to be very few pictures of the front suspension of these cars, does anyone have any they can upload?

 

There seems to be very few pictures of the front suspension of these cars, does anyone have any they can upload?[/QUOTE]

I have been asking for pics of front suspension for years and never managed to find any!
The mag uprights you have will they be not be suspect to crack as they are very old?

 

There seems to be very few pictures of the front suspension of these cars, does anyone have any they can upload?
I have been asking for pics of front suspension for years and never managed to find any!
The mag uprights you have will they be not be suspect to crack as they are very old?

I have never seen any in situ front suspension pictures (Except one low res one from the Gibson car that was sold to Malaysia) , only of the parts

PB30, do you have any?

My engineer doesn't think the uprights will crack, but I guess time will tell.

 

I think I would be a lot happier having old mag castings digitised and CNC'd from billet alloy if possible

 

Better off casting them again in Magnesium, they are such a big piece that they would be too heaving in Alluminium.

All the Group A cars out there including most of the Gibson ones are still in use and seem to have no problems with the uprights.

Does Magnesium deteriorate over time, which leads to cracking? anyone had any experience with this?

The rear uprights would never had been designed the way they were if it wasn't for the restrictions of Group A. They have built in camber adjusters which makes them a very heavy unit. The reason they needed these is because the pickup points were not parallel to the wheel, therefore there was no simple way of adjusting camber within the arm mount points. his is the reason the A arms do not have adjusters on them (Rose joints or shims)

 

Did any of these cars run the thick walled blocks Nismo produced, the ones which are apparently very rare these days with a thick head face, and thick bore walls?

 

From what I have been told I believe the Gibson car used the Group A block you are talking about.If the Gibson did then the Nismo one would be at least that spec

 

And if I can ask a similar question....

When were the first N! blocks available?
I assume they were the blocks that were homologated for Grp A?

The reason I ask is my R32 is build no 471 (BNR-0000471) and has an N1 block that I think is the original. So far it is the only one of the first 500 that I have seen that has that block.
The car had 110,000km on the clock and was virtually std when I bought it. Only a set of Tomei pods, Apexi cooler, Greedy hard pipe kit and a set of wheels. Even the brake discs looked like the original cross drilled originals.
Even if the motor had been rebuilt in Japan I don't think they would have fitted a N1 block and left everything else totally std......??

 

Group A blocks are different from standard(O5U), N1(24U) and RRR
Also N1 blocks have been changed recently, they now have a higher nickel content. Apparently they are almost as strong as the RRR

 

>Cheers for that:thumbsup:

Do you know if the N1 blocks were available that early in the R32 production...?

 

Old vid from 1990's

Old video's, shows rear suspension again and a glimpse of the front

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkKyQPao9DU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcT7C_Npp-s

 

Group A

I will have the Group A parts modelled up on Solid works from this Scan data to show it insitu with correct geometry.

Scan is to 50 microns in accuracy

Here is a snap of the underbody, will post hubs etc soon, then post all components assembled

 

I will have the Group A parts modelled up on Solid works from this Scan data to show it insitu with correct geometry.

Scan is to 50 microns in accuracy

Here is a snap of the underbody, will post hubs etc soon, then post all components assembled

I've just been reading through your posts relating to the Group A R32 suspension.

I run a small engineering business in Sydney, Australia and we specialise in motorsport uprights. We're currently doing some research around the R32 as a lot of people track these cars and quite often have very strange geometry with a lot of bind because they're not doing things properly.

We will be manufacturing complete uprights for the front and rear and potentially wishbones to suit the package.

Seeing your photos finally gave me an idea of what was happening on the front of the Group A cars but I'm still going to need a lot more information.

Would you be willing to chat about your findings? Have you modelled the suspension completely? Is your model based off the Group A geometry?

 

Close up at the taisan r32 gr.A

Gr.A R32 GT-R (2) - YouTube

 

^^^^^^^^^^
Awesomeness!!!!
:thumbsup:
Bob

 

Have you seen the third video where he is driving it?

Interesting under shots. You can see the reinforced rear subframe and Rose jointed arms. Giving me more ideas.

 

Have you hole book of regulation for this car like the picture above in thread? Is it possible to get parts anymore for this era of cars?

Fun or PS30?

Intrested of more if possible.

 

Group A parts

Hi,

It is not possible to get parts from these car, I have contacted both Nismo and Gibson Motorsport, the only two companies that made parts for these cars and they both do not have anything left.
Gibson has also discarded the moulds they had for the hubs and wheels and also the Jig's for the suspension parts.
When Nismo rebuilt the Taisan car they re-manufactured the hubs from billet aluminium as a one off (They were originally cast magnesium)


Only way now is to make your own replica parts

I do have an original Group A 6 speed dog box transmission with Magnesium bell housing (made by Holinger and as used by both Nismo and Gibson) which I could sell you if you are interested. It is fully rebuilt.
I also could arrange some suspension parts to be duplicated, but they would probably end up quite costly.

 

Problem with these sorts of cars, just like Group C or F1 is they are in a constant state of development and parts change throughout the season. Sometimes minor parts, sometimes major. The converse are spec class cars from major manufacturers, like the Audi TT race series cars, where they make dozens, identical in all regards. Buying something like that makes parts much easier to find or replicate. Open (ish...) series like Touring Cars, change stuff on a race by race, evolutionary basis, making spares a nightmare to source.


Even finding period tyres, around which the suspension would have been designed can be a problem, or plain impossible.


Did I mention cheating? What they say they run, or is on the sponsorship decals, may be a mile apart from what's really on the car. Remember the Audi V8 Touring car found to have a flat plane crank? Audi claimed they just bent an opposed crank.... Yeah, right! get the right financial director at the right time and manufacturers sign off some really radical spending on bizarre stuff! It often gets cut up with a sigh of relief no one has caught them when the race is won!


Not saying NISMO were bent, just saying this to explain why parts change or may not be what they appear. Last example, Group A Volvo 240 Turbos. Live rear axle, no way they can have negative camber, right? Hell, no, special centre housings with tubes inserted at 1.5 and more degrees angle, to suit a given track. Custom shafts and side gears with ball ended splines, allow misalignment, but wear like HELL, and get binned every race. I got chased down the back of the pit garages at Silverstone by two VERY angry Swedes when I took underside photos of an RAS Volvo 240 with a camera on a broom handle, whilst the mechanics were chatting up my girlfriend, whom I asked to distract them. Nothing terribly exciting to see on film, but they were pretty paranoid in those days about who sees what. And my bloody girlfriend emigrated to Gotenburg six months later, I still wonder about wheter it was anything to do with those oily blonde haired oiks....

 

Homologation

Group A was a lot more restricted than those other series. The homologation papers loged with the FIA had to include all the mods and pics etc. There are two papers that I have. I'll have to go and look at the numbers though. My car does have different hubs (being the ex Spanish Touring car champion). They even have the NISMO part numbers still on them.

 

Homologation sheets numbers are:

A-5405 Grp. A
N-5405 Grp. N

These were very heavily policed; especially down under as there was sever anti Nissan feeling from the traditional Holden / Ford camps.
I recall there was a fair bit of argument about all sorts of items, brake air intake positioning etc. In the end as we all know the boost was cut with a huge F1 blow off valve mounted on the intake plenum and the weight increased. They even ran with the electric windows! The overall result was the same with the GT-R triumphant. Winning all championships until banned outright. The other Japanese manufactures were not prepared to compete and spat the dummy... We won't play until that GT-R is banned...

Either way the sheets contain interesting items like the alternative brake callipers, water cooling and strange shaped bumper brake scoops.

 

I think you will find Chris is correct, the papers might show one thing, but what was on the cars could differ quite a bit.
I read an interview with Frank Gibson (Gibson/Nissan Motorsport Australia) and he talked about the tricks they did to "bend" the rules a little. One that I remember was the inter cooler on the R31's, he custom made up what he wanted to use and put it in a Nismo box....and there was plenty more.

 

Any blatant cheating would be easily discovered and protested by other teams and manufacturers in the latter period of Gr.A racing. Lots of little stuff always went on (still does...) and 'everybody's at it' usually applied, but anything deemed a step too far would be pounced on.

If anybody knows of any blatant un-homologated 'cheats' or demon tweaks with the Gr.A Skyline GT-R then they might like to tell us about them here for some good conversation.

The overall result was the same with the GT-R triumphant. Winning all championships until banned outright.

Except the GT-R was never specifically "banned outright", was it? This story has been repeated so many times it has taken on its own reality.

About the homologation papers: They are 'free' to anybody who wants to pay the fee and buy them from their local FIA-affiliated motorsport governing body, or direct from the FIA themselves. Apply to JAF in Japan and you get a much nicer set than the crappy photocopies of photocopies you'll get elsewhere.

 

I'm sure you're both right in that rules were flexed where possible. It is just a case of how much. There's no doubt that the car driving public are worse off as soon as the rules were degraded to allow non homologated wings and brakes etc into the sport. It just ment that the homologation specials were dumbed down and no longer so special.
Back to the homologation sheets. These show the suspension components and as you will see they differ from the production items a fair bit, being much stronger and stiffer.

 

I agree about the crappy photo copies !

The "banning outright" is smoke and mirrors but as they were the only 4WD car represented it is what it came to. Nissan had paid for the development of the homologated car and it was shameful that all the "poor" other players which are all global manufacturers could not / would not pay to play (and to sell the public something decent). Ford, GM, Toyota, Mitsubishi, etc. It is without doubt the strongest admission of defeat there is!

 

Agree with PS30-SB, the 32 wasn't banned, but that incorrect "fact" has made it's way into lore, just like Twinkies lasting forever or Hitler built the Nordschleife.
CAMS adopted FIA SuperTouring rules which had been in place since the late 80's. The 32 continued race 4wd in Japan in JTCC and so subsequently did the 33 and 34 in Super Taikyu where they were equally successful.

 

Japanese Grp A championship rules changed too in end of '93. The JGTC (Japanese Grand Touring Championship) then came along with many performance equalising penalties and dumbing down to reduce cost. Least ways these R33's were the cars that they took to LeMans and they were certainly 2WD but running under the entry of the Japanese rules. I remember watching them run to a fith position or so result.
There was briefly a Japanese GT championship that the R32's caught a season of, but they were running against full on GT cars, not touring cars. They ran with 4WD then. I could look into it further, but not just now.

 

I don't think we'll be casting but will be CNC-ing them. If we can make the kit as close to Group A spec as possible so that general racers as well as those wanting to build replica cars car and keep things looking as period as possible. Ideally getting hold of original parts to scan and measure would be the best bet but not sure that will ever happen.

 

I run the original Group A uprights on my car, it makes the handling totally different.

The problem with the road car ones is the King pin angle (from memory I think it is something like 35 degrees, where as the Group A ones are around 12 degrees)

Binding is a major problem with the front and rear factory setup if you want to use sphericals or rod ends.

If you are starting from scratch make the front double A arm as even the Group A J arm setup has nasty camber and caster change when going through its travel

The Group A uprights are quite large and complex, this is probably the reason they are cast in Magnesium. If you are going to CNC machine from alloy billet, I would change the design otherwise they will weight too much

 

By double wishbone do you mean remove the upper section and moving the upper arm down to about chassis rail height? The main issue with doing this (and while I agree it's a much better setup) is that you're asking guys to make massive modifications to their chassis.

There is a solution, just haven't worked it out yet...

 

Plates will need to be welded into the side of the chassis rail.

If you want to go the other way with the J arm then it will cost a lot more.

The guy who made the original J arms for Gibson Motorsport could make you some J arms but it will cost you $8000 AUD plus GST. He would copy them from an original set. They are complex and to be honest a bad setup.

 

It is surprising how quick R32GTRs are on circuit considering the geometry they have.

I have been looking at getting an improved toppling made, as the UAS pivoting toplink doesn't appear to be in stock currently, unless any of you guys know one which allows for the 'twisting' motion when the suspension compresses?

Oh, fun123, your project is awesome btw!

Cheers,

Mark