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Discussion Starter #1
I see there is nothing on the forum regarding these Cryogenic Coolers. They come with intake pipe coolers, fuel coolers and intercooler sprayers.

Has anybody on here got a system like this or know of anybody that does. I was wondering how beneficial these systems actually are.

I may even consider getting a kit depending on the response.

Any info will be great.

BaysideBaby



Design Engineering, Inc. - CryO2 System & Components
 

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i dont know about the piece of kit but considering the effect it has cooling wise it sure would be helpfull to the cooling of the intake but since its an on/off switch it wont be used temporarly wich is the only downside......


the article is not the best but there are more powerfull cryogenics than co2 for sure... but the question now is building a system yourself worth the trouble or going with a kit should suffice????


what are the goal with such a system etc...


other refrigerant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_refrigerants


then the only thing needed is a powerfull compressor to condense the gasses



Carbon dioxide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As refrigerants

Liquid and solid carbon dioxide are important refrigerants, especially in the food industry, where they are employed during the transportation and storage of ice cream and other frozen foods. Solid carbon dioxide is called "dry ice" and is used for small shipments where refrigeration equipment is not practical.

Liquid carbon dioxide (industry nomenclature R744 or R-744) was used as a refrigerant prior to the discovery of R-12 and is likely to enjoy a renaissance due to environmental concerns. Its physical properties are highly favorable for cooling, refrigeration, and heating purposes, having a high volumetric cooling capacity. Due to its operation at pressures of up to 130 bars, CO2 systems require highly resistant components that have been already developed to serial production in many sectors. In car air conditioning, in more than 90% of all driving conditions, R744 operates more efficiently than systems using R-134a. Its environmental advantages (GWP of 1, non-ozone depleting, non-toxic, non-flammable) could make it the future working fluid to replace current HFCs in cars, supermarkets, hot water heat pumps, among others. Some applications: Coca-Cola has fielded CO2-based beverage coolers and the U.S. Army is interested in CO2 refrigeration and heating technology.[14][15]

By the end of 2007, the global car industry is expected to decide on the next-generation refrigerant in car air conditioning. CO2 is one discussed option.(see The Cool War)
 

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I'd looked at their system, and the CO2 is vented to atmosphere. What a way to directly increase your carbon footprint :D

There are surely better refrigerants, but cost of refilling the tank is an issue.
One thing I've always wondered - especially for applications where a giant front-mounted intercooler is impossible (like a mid-engined car), is why air conditioning isn't used for charge cooling. The A/C compressor surely doesn't use more than a few horsepower. It's better to charge-cool with a "free" system like an air to air intercooler, but I do like the compactness of an A/C based system, at least in thought design exercises.
 

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I'd looked at their system, and the CO2 is vented to atmosphere. What a way to directly increase your carbon footprint :D

There are surely better refrigerants, but cost of refilling the tank is an issue.
One thing I've always wondered - especially for applications where a giant front-mounted intercooler is impossible (like a mid-engined car), is why air conditioning isn't used for charge cooling. The A/C compressor surely doesn't use more than a few horsepower. It's better to charge-cool with a "free" system like an air to air intercooler, but I do like the compactness of an A/C based system, at least in thought design exercises.
Don't think that the A/C system would be able to cool the air quick enough to be any use. The volume of air which entres the car's cabin is tiny compared to the amount the engine uses.

Strokes me that useless you want the ultimate in performance (perhaps for a competative drag run) you might as well plum in a nitrous system. The effect will be (braodly speaking) the same as will the limitations. Only advanatge I can see is that CO2 isn't flammable or an accelerant or would be safer to store.
 

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hmm, good point. I guess a specialized A/C core could be designed in lieu of an intercooler, but still, the air velocity may be too fast to effectively cool the air, even if the core was made to be fairly long.

which makes me wonder just how effective that CryO2 air charge cooler can be - a single bulb, even at -80 degrees, if the air rushes by at very high velocity.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The main reasons for looking into this is due to that i can get CO2 pretty cheap and a 10lb bottle will cost next to nothing to get filled. This is obviously safer to handle and safer on the engine.

If i do get one of these kits i'll be sure to let everyone know how i get on with it, and hopefully get a dyno before and after just to see the comparison.

Big Up to the Carbon Foot Print!:D
 

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the big benefit as I see it is that if it doesn't help things, it can't hurt, except maybe create an intake flow restriction (for the air charge cooler), because nothing is being injected into the engine, and therefore you don't have to map for it at all. And one would really only be using it during the summer as far as I can see.

I have my doubts about intercooler sprays though. We've just hit the monsoon here in Korea, so while driving the FMIC is basically under a constant barrage of a LOT of water. I measure intake temp right after the intercooler - the most I see in dry weather is one degree colder than ambient. I think I saw 1.5 degrees colder at one moment during the rain.

Maybe it's because water doesn't exactly like to evaporate in 100% humidity. So in that case, a water spray might be effective in Dubai, but useless in Singapore or Hong Kong. Pretty damned humid in Seoul during the summer as well - sometimes it's really not that hot, but I have to have the air conditioning at home and in my office running, just to dehumidify the air.

And as far as a CO2 spray, I think distance from the nozzle to the intercooler is critical - the further away it is, the less cooling you get. Like with a air spray can duster. Near the nozzle, you'll get a cold burn. But twelve inches away, it just isn't that cold.

One thing I can't sort out from the website - if one chooses to only use the air charge cooling unit...where does the CO2 vent to?

as far as the environment, could be worse...you could decide to use Freon gas for extra chilling effect - blowing kilograms of it straight out into the atmosphere :p
 

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Discussion Starter #8
the big benefit as I see it is that if it doesn't help things, it can't hurt, except maybe create an intake flow restriction (for the air charge cooler), because nothing is being injected into the engine, and therefore you don't have to map for it at all. And one would really only be using it during the summer as far as I can see.

I have my doubts about intercooler sprays though. We've just hit the monsoon here in Korea, so while driving the FMIC is basically under a constant barrage of a LOT of water. I measure intake temp right after the intercooler - the most I see in dry weather is one degree colder than ambient. I think I saw 1.5 degrees colder at one moment during the rain.

Maybe it's because water doesn't exactly like to evaporate in 100% humidity. So in that case, a water spray might be effective in Dubai, but useless in Singapore or Hong Kong. Pretty damned humid in Seoul during the summer as well - sometimes it's really not that hot, but I have to have the air conditioning at home and in my office running, just to dehumidify the air.

And as far as a CO2 spray, I think distance from the nozzle to the intercooler is critical - the further away it is, the less cooling you get. Like with a air spray can duster. Near the nozzle, you'll get a cold burn. But twelve inches away, it just isn't that cold.

One thing I can't sort out from the website - if one chooses to only use the air charge cooling unit...where does the CO2 vent to?

as far as the environment, could be worse...you could decide to use Freon gas for extra chilling effect - blowing kilograms of it straight out into the atmosphere :p
As you say about the website, it shows the air charge cooling unit (Bulb) blanked off (i think). It would not expell to atmosphere, surely it has to to get the cooling done? Who knows?:confused:
 

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guys try to find a pc overclocking forum and go read on cascade phase change system.. basicly you could take 2 or 3 small compressor and each cool to a certain temp in stage sure it would require electricity but a batterie in the trunk could be place or 4 even and the proper electricity circuitry etc...


these system in big 3 stagers could go to close to -120 celsius even lower depending on gas used etc...
 

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and about what i said you could use a liquid to air intercooler... and place the evaporator in the liquid tank in the trunk and use 2 pump for 2 line so there's a steady flow of cooled liquid and why not use acetone instead of water or some other low temp fluid and mod the intake to support some sort of metal brace of some sort so it comes in contact with the intake before entering the intercooler so the metal brace would be frozen below 0 and not to lose the coldness's efficiency you could insulate all the ic piping and intake piping etc...
 

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In this clip of the Reyland Cossie you can see them do it by hand with spraycans.
You can compare the times with the runs where they don't.

 

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a drop of about 25 degree in intake temps give a gain in 1 point of octane if you may... because if you lower the temps by 25 degree you dont need that octane point but 1 notch lower.. for example 97 instead of 98 so what he did in the video isnt drastic...... but imagine a system where you could remove the need for ultra high octane while still running high boost and high compression!! is it a myth??? reality?? ford did it with the lightning but it was temporary.. and to that i say why cant we figure this out and create our own


ill try to find the place i saw about the temp drop statement
 

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Discussion Starter #14
a drop of about 25 degree in intake temps give a gain in 1 point of octane if you may... because if you lower the temps by 25 degree you dont need that octane point but 1 notch lower.. for example 97 instead of 98 so what he did in the video isnt drastic...... but imagine a system where you could remove the need for ultra high octane while still running high boost and high compression!! is it a myth??? reality?? ford did it with the lightning but it was temporary.. and to that i say why cant we figure this out and create our own


ill try to find the place i saw about the temp drop statement
You mentioned that ford did it with the lightning?

All they had was a charge cooler and this was not a good system as i would know i've had one before. There prone for the cooler going between the inlet manifold and the supercharger (causing some serious issues), there was a huge recall on these when they first came out(360bhp)! And they changed it slightly with the later models (380bhp). I have also had a syclone with the charge cooler setup, didn't like that too. Ripped it off and had big air to air cooler, worked loads better.
 

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Under no circumstances, inject CO2 into the induction system. Remember it is used in fire "extinguishers". It will only extinguish the ignition in the engine chamber and we don't want that, do we.

Talking from experience. Used this basic system on a little project car. A CO2 extuingisher connected via a manually operated valve, piping to a chamber around intercooler piping, the green hose is only an exit for gas as I did not want the pressure to be rising too much. As shown here, the exit gas was atmoshere vented but while on track I tried to vent it into the induction system as a trial, thinking it is cold so better. Almost instantly the car would struggle to stay alive and die. Then it would be hard to fire it up again instantly as the CO2 would linger in the chamber for a while. After a few secs, instant fire up when the CO2 had faded.

How it worked - I can say, it would freeze the chamber instantly as the CO2 would be injected and helped cool the intake air. The chamber was an open one therefore the effectiveness of it cooling in a given time the induction air passed through the chamber length is questionable though. It did help reduce the 1/4 mile time by 0.2s in the end. If the chamber is manufactured more effectively, like the water to air cooler type with fins in it, it would definitely be helpful.

Check out the pics. You are allowed to laugh as the mod was a desperate late night attempt to break the standing record with a standard car at very ametuer level drags. The silver linings are to keep the heat out. LOL.

It did work and the record was broken with it.




 

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purge your nitrous system onto the intercoleer, or try a washer botte with windscreen jets, costs the square root of fcuk all, and will let you see any increase, i was going to use a stock twin pump tank on my v spec (no rear washer) and plumb the 2nd pump into jets on the tintercooler, just to see if theres any notable benefit

STI wrx scoobys only have a water tank btw
 

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no laughs here, applause for ingenuity - if everyone did things by the book, or if people weren't willing to experiment and learn, then development of the RB26 would never really happen, not as much as it has. Race teams campaigning the Group A R32 developed the engine, but I daresay it has received infinitely more development in the 15 years in the aftermarket since Group A ended, and the limits and characteristics of the car are still being pushed.
 

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Don't think that the A/C system would be able to cool the air quick enough to be any use. The volume of air which entres the car's cabin is tiny compared to the amount the engine uses.
You're assuming that you'd need the a/c system to extract the extra heat in 'real time'.

It could work if you had a volume of water you kept nice and chilly with the a/c pump and you used this to soak up the charge heat when on boost. If there was enough water to soak up the heat for the period of time you're on boost then the a/c just needs to be able to extract that heat before the next time you want boost. Not very good for prolonged top speed runs but for general road driving it may be OK. Probably no good on track when you're on boost a higher percentage of the time though.

Of course the a/c pump may still not be powerful enough anyway.
 

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I've vague memories of some race series in the USA, Formula Street Ford or something where the cars still had the a/c fitted. At least one team tried using the a/c to cool the incoming charge by using a 'boost button' operated by the driver. It was a bit like KERS I suppose but 20 years ago! It was rigged up such that the a/c created a reservoir of cold air that was 'dumped' into the system when the button was pressed. IF I remember correctly it would give them about 50BHP more for few seconds, enough to facilitate an over taking move but not much else. It would then take some time for the a/c to 'charge again'. I don't think normally the benefit justified the weight penalty of all the a/c kit and power loss for the compressor, but since they had to carry it anyway it worked out positive.

A quirk of the rules made this viable. Real world reality would normally say, stop playing, be a man and fit nitrous!

DaveG
 
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