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Discussion Starter #1
Hi All

Ok, I have the very first NISSAN Factory Prototype R33 GTR V-Spec designed for the UK Market.

Now this car is full UK Specification as we all know them to be, however it has a JDM Chassis code denoting it was the very 1st prototype.

It has NISSAN GB UK Handbooks with NISSAN GB UK Documents

Do we accept this as a UK car or a JDM car? How would the value of such a car stack up against a UK Chassis code car.

I'm keen to debate these facts with other enthusiasts.
 

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So, if I bought a JDM Impreza and put UKDM books and docs in it does that make IT UKDM??

The answer is no, of course not.

Your case is slightly different Dave and it's all about provenance. Doesn't matter the chassis code or what docs/pubs it has in it IMO. it should be judged on what it is/was....

If you have, or could get, some written statement from Nissan GB or the official UK importer at the time (Middlehursts I presume!??) then that would secure the 'back story'. The significance of the car itself can be debated as it was just a test bed for the UK-specific mods but I'm sure that will carry some weight with certain folks looking for a 'special' Skyline.

TT
 

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How much does the price change from a UK car to a grey import over there?

The R32 was sold in Aussie when new (100 imported) and the price is quite different IIRC.

Here in NZ, we didn't have any of them sold as new but I do remember my local Nissan dealer having a new one for sale in 1991 for $110,000 and I think it was one of the Aussie cars (they were struggling to sell them at the time)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
So, if I bought a JDM Impreza and put UKDM books and docs in it does that make IT UKDM??

The answer is no, of course not.

Your case is slightly different Dave and it's all about provenance. Doesn't matter the chassis code or what docs/pubs it has in it IMO. it should be judged on what it is/was....

If you have, or could get, some written statement from Nissan GB or the official UK importer at the time (Middlehursts I presume!??) then that would secure the 'back story'. The significance of the car itself can be debated as it was just a test bed for the UK-specific mods but I'm sure that will carry some weight with certain folks looking for a 'special' Skyline.

TT
Very true, so NISSAN JP built this car at OMORI with the purpose of trialing this car in the UK for our market.

The unique chassis code tells us this was the first of 3 produced for trialing over here.

I don't know if the others even exist anymore.

This isn't a Middlehurst Special where they (Middlehurst) registered another 20 JDM units to meet their order's.
 

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Ok, I have the very first NISSAN Factory Prototype R33 GTR V-Spec designed for the UK Market.

Now this car is full UK Specification as we all know them to be, however it has a JDM Chassis code denoting it was the very 1st prototype.
Whatever else it is, it's not a "Factory Prototype".

By definition, having been released for sale to the general public, it is a Production Car.

For anyone who follows this kind of thing closely, the early days of full production on any model can often be observed as being a little bit, er, rubbery to say the least. It's not unusual, but it is quite interesting.

You are - I notice - mixing up the terms "factory prototype" and "built at Omori". The "factory" was not at Omori. In the period in question, the 'Omori' address in Shinagawa, Tokyo was the location of NISMO. The car - or at least the major part of it, would have had to have been built initially at the Murayama factory and then taken to the Omori facility to be modified/completed. Whilst the NISMO facility at Omori was nicknamed the 'Omori Factory' by Nissan, the real factory in the case of the production Skyline was the ex-Prince facility at Musashi Murayama on the western outskirts of the Tokyo metropolitan area.

If you can prove that the car was modified/finished at Omori then it is interesting, but it's not a "prototype" in the usual sense of the term.
 

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By UK specification you mean it has all the oil coolers, indicators, sidelights etc?

How does the VIN number tell you its one of three that were built to be trialled here in the UK?

Sounds interesting but never heard of them before, I know Middlehurst sold 20 cars before selling the 100 official UK cars...
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I know where the OMORI facory is and exactly what it is Alan, and this is not the first "prototype" I have came across neither but thanks for your input.

Usually these are destroyed and not registered as you probably know.
By definitian it is a prototype, 1 of 3 produced to be trialed. It carries the unique "Z" in its identification code. It arrived here in 1997 though it was not actually "legally" registered for road use til 1999.

I worked on a similar car at NISMO Facility nr Bonne that was NISSAN's Time Attack R34, again unregistered but with plates showing. Again a unique car and chassis 01, built in the OMORI with the collaboration of MIDDLEHURST Technicians who flew there to assist NISSAN.

I'm in the OMORI Factory and the ZAMA Museum as a guest of NISMO in a few days, It will certainly be an interesting visit, though doubtful many staff will be around to remember those days.


QUOTE=PS30-SB;5514554]Whatever else it is, it's not a "Factory Prototype".

By definition, having been released for sale to the general public, it is a Production Car.

For anyone who follows this kind of thing closely, the early days of full production on any model can often be observed as being a little bit, er, rubbery to say the least. It's not unusual, but it is quite interesting.

You are - I notice - mixing up the terms "factory prototype" and "built at Omori". The "factory" was not at Omori. In the period in question, the 'Omori' address in Shinagawa, Tokyo was the location of NISMO. The car - or at least the major part of it, would have had to have been built initially at the Murayama factory and then taken to the Omori facility to be modified/completed. Whilst the NISMO facility at Omori was nicknamed the 'Omori Factory' by Nissan, the real factory in the case of the production Skyline was the ex-Prince facility at Musashi Murayama on the western outskirts of the Tokyo metropolitan area.

If you can prove that the car was modified/finished at Omori then it is interesting, but it's not a "prototype" in the usual sense of the term.[/QUOTE]
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I doubt Tamura San would have been involved in this project as he really came to the fore with the BNR34 Chassis. I will ask him next week.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I agree it,s not a prototype it,s just an early production trial car. I personally don,t see it as being any more valuable than a normal UK spec assuming it has the desirable parts the production uk cars had

So is it more or less desirable than the official UK model which 100 were produced as this is 1 of 3 produced.

Yes it comes with all the UK items.

By description how do you see a early production "trial" car being different to a prototype.#

-noun- "prototype" * a first or preliminary version of a device or vehicle from which other forms are developed *

To an enthusiast, given the choice is it more appealing to own 1 of the 100 NISSAN produced or 1 of the 3 it Prototyped to eventually produce the 100.
 

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To me the vin says it all Dave, it;s just a grey import with UK spec bolted on as a trial IMHO.
Great for someone wanting a car with a unique history but I can;t see it being worth more, I might be wrong though!
 

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I know where the OMORI facory is and exactly what it is Alan, and this is not the first "prototype" I have came across neither but thanks for your input.
I wasn't pointing it out for your benefit, Dave. I was pointing it out for the benefit of others who might swallow the story whole. I reckon it needs some chewing over first. To avoid indigestion.

davew said:
I'm in the OMORI Factory and the ZAMA Museum as a guest of NISMO in a few days, It will certainly be an interesting visit, though doubtful many staff will be around to remember those days.
You understand that the 'OMORI Factory' you will be visiting is not the same 'Omori Factory' that you say modified the car? The original 'Omori Factory' NISMO facility in Shinagawa was pulled down and is now a block of residential flats.

You'll be visiting the new 'Omori Factory' in Yokohama. It's nice (I last visited when I was assisting NISMO and Nissan with the rebuild of the R380 and R382 race cars) but the old facility in Shinagawa had all the history and heritage. Much more my cup of tea. Zama's great now too. The first time I visited they didn't have lights in there...




On the "prototype" question, I still think it incorrect to call such a car a prototype. The R33 was already in full production when the car in question was put together, so it's clearly not a 'prototype' in the usually accepted sense of the term. Of course, the word 'prototype' is an English language term. It might be more accurate to discuss it in the Japanese terms that Nissan themselves would have used?

That's if you really want a 'debate'...? ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
To me the vin says it all Dave, it;s just a grey import with UK spec bolted on as a trial IMHO.
Great for someone wanting a car with a unique history but I can;t see it being worth more, I might be wrong though!

I'm collecting it shortly and will do more digging into it's history. Im half inkled to restore her back to her glory, I usually avoid keeping cars as you know but something about this one.
 

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Yup know most of those facts except you assisting NISSAN? Wow very good.


So this prototype car no1 were discussing, your personal feelings are it's worth the same as a UK Chassis code unit?

I wasn't pointing it out for your benefit, Dave. I was pointing it out for the benefit of others who might swallow the story whole. I reckon it needs some chewing over first. To avoid indigestion.



You understand that the 'OMORI Factory' you will be visiting is not the same 'Omori Factory' that you say modified the car? The original 'Omori Factory' NISMO facility in Shinagawa was pulled down and is now a block of residential flats.

You'll be visiting the new 'Omori Factory' in Yokohama. It's nice (I last visited when I was assisting NISMO and Nissan with the rebuild of the R380 and R382 race cars) but the old facility in Shinagawa had all the history and heritage. Much more my cup of tea. Zama's great now too. The first time I visited they didn't have lights in there...




On the "prototype" question, I still think it incorrect to call such a car a prototype. The R33 was already in full production when the car in question was put together, so it's clearly not a 'prototype' in the usually accepted sense of the term. Of course, the word 'prototype' is an English language term. It might be more accurate to discuss it in the Japanese terms that Nissan themselves would have used?

That's if you really want a 'debate'...? ;-)
 

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I think it is fair to consider the data in Nissan FAST regarding these cars. To simply state it is a JDM car with UK bits thrown on and therefore it's a JDM car does not give this car of 3 the credit it deserves.

In Nissan FAST in the JP section (where all of the BCNR33s are except for the 100 17 digit VIN UK cars which are in the ER section) there are 3 with the model code GGJPRWFR33ZDAYGB1Z. The YGB1Z is the important part. Y for Export, GB for Great Britain. There are other country codes which are SG (Singapore), HK (Hong Kong) NZ (New Zealand) and BR (Brunei).

When looking up
BCNR33-042091
BCNR33-042092
BCNR33-042093

In FAST it looks like this:



There are no other R33s with that model code. Additionally the production dates are 1997-06 whereas the later UK cars start at 1997-08.

Since Dave says he has the first prototype, we can assume the car is BCNR33-042091.

I don't have any issue using the word 'prototype'. Clearly this car was built before the main batch of 100.

Do we accept this as a UK car or a JDM car? How would the value of such a car stack up against a UK Chassis code car.
Yes UK car. Same value as UK car.

Here in NZ, we didn't have any of them sold as new but I do remember my local Nissan dealer having a new one for sale in 1991 for $110,000 and I think it was one of the Aussie cars (they were struggling to sell them at the time)
Not sure if you're referring to R33 GT-Rs or Skylines in general but there was 5x R34 GT-R V-Spec, 2x R34 GT-R V-Spec II and 62x R34 GT-T factory delivered to New Zealand which have NZ in the model code.

How does the VIN number tell you its one of three that were built to be trialled here in the UK?

Sounds interesting but never heard of them before, I know Middlehurst sold 20 cars before selling the 100 official UK cars...
Have a look on GTR-Registry.com there is a list of all production data exported from Nissan FAST.

GTR-Registry.com - EN-BCNR33-VIN
And a dedicated page to the UK cars here:
GTR-Registry.com - EN-R33-GTR-V-Spec-Great-Britain

To me the vin says it all Dave, it;s just a grey import with UK spec bolted on as a trial IMHO.
Disagreed. The fact it has the model code GGJPRWFR33ZDAYGB1Z directly implies that it is a factory delivered UK car.

Cheers.
 

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No doubt it is unique, but surely to call it a prototype it would have to have features or options that DIDN'T make it to retail. Otherwise isn't it just a "pre-production sample"?

Mike
 

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So this prototype car no1 were discussing, your personal feelings are it's worth the same as a UK Chassis code unit?
As I've already stated, I don't think the term 'Prototype' is appropriate for this car.

As has been shown, it is acknowledged on Nissan FAST system. Again, that indicates it is something other than a 'Prototype'. It's a production car that fits into a transitional period where a new sub-variant is being planned.

That's not to talk it down in any way. It's an interesting car, and similar cross-over variants from Nissan exist in private hands. There are certainly people who would be pleased to own and cherish such a niche car, but I have no idea how much of a premium it would command.
 

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for this to have any significant extra value I would suggest it would need to be purchased by a collector rather than an owner.

and for a collector to pay any premium as a rarer car it would definately need to be in completely original condition with particular attention on the original spec


If not you cant really claim it to be a limited production car (I wouldnt use prototype )
 

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Long Story...

Ok, I have the very first NISSAN Factory Prototype R33 GTR V-Spec designed for the UK Market.


So GM did something similar in 1987 by sending over 12 RHD Vauxhall Carlton GSi 3000's (all were badged up as Opel Omega 3000's though and have Japanese folding electric mirrors & large wing indicators fitted too) to New Zealand for assessment to gauge local reaction and find out if there truly was a potential market for such cars over there.

Sometime in 1988 GM also did the same by sending a mixture of 23 RHD Carlton GSi's and LHD Omega 3000's to Lotus in Hethel, Norfolk for some performance modifications and testing of various development parts. These early cars were known as "V" models and the last almost finish versions being the "PP" cars which I'll go into further a bit later on.

Anyway, The reason for me digressing into GM history on a Nissan topic here is because I believe that one of the terms used by this vehicle manufacturer would also perfectly suit the car Dave is referring too perfectly....:p


If not you cant really claim it to be a limited production car (I wouldnt use prototype )


Because Dave's latest BCNR33 is one of just three Special Jap Imports with UK specific modifications for evaluation in Our Country, It makes this Skyline either an "eValuation" model or a "Pre-Production model seeing as it is the true Grandfather of what became the Official UKDM version.

So does anyone else on here agree with me that either the term "Pre-Production One" or maybe "Evaluation One" of these names would suit chassis number BCNR33-042091 way better than the term Prototype does?
 
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