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Litchfield Stage 2

32K views 86 replies 28 participants last post by  Aerodramatics 
#1 ·
Guys,

i wanted to take a moment to mention how pleased I am after my mid week visit to Litchfields for a 18 month service and optimization followed by a stage 2 upgrade :).

Firstly the service was done on time and at a fantastic price compared to any HPC, and secoundly the stage two upgrade using the new ECUTEK switchable map ECU, which not only seems to be making the fuel efficiency more economical, but even more importantly has really added extra useable power throughout the rev range. i have today been to Surrey rolling road, and they confirmed the BHP as 593.4 and fFtLb as 610, awesome results just from the stage two, thanks Iain and the team, great work, a very happy customer.

Branden
 
#2 ·
Brandan, nice stats. What makes up the Litchfield stage 2?

I opted (after much deliberation) for the Cobb route & power is a tad higher but torque a tad lower than the figures you've posted so curious what's in the Stage 2?
 
#7 ·
Hi,

Yes the Milltek ypipe/exhaust, filters and ECU remap. I have a photo of the print out from the dyno run today, but I cant seem to upload it to prove the stats!

For me, its the piece of mind knowing Litchfield have worked on my car and will continue to for any servicing or general upkeep. Worth the trip imo.
 
#9 ·
They both will produce similar results, and I'm sure there are plenty of happy Cobb customers who will testify to that. The ecutek now allows you o choose between a road and race map viancruise control buttons, very simple and very effective with choicest allow economical driving ( for a GTR anyway)

For me peace of mind that any issued Litchfields know and service my car now anyway, and will be best placed to support me if the need be.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Thanks for the reply, it's a big consideration, especially since I am contemplating a lot of litchfields other products namely the brakes, and his 2011+ suspension upgrade (yet to be released). Does make sense to keep it in one place I suppose.

I would really love it if someone could point by point actually compare the Cobb and th ecutek, preferably someone who knows them both, but at the moment not sure that person exists (cept maybe an ecutek staff member but I can't see them posting).

I know the basic advantages that the Cobb displays such as owning hardware and some other displays, but those aren't the most important consideration for me, so I need more info.

For me it comes down to what tools the mapper has available to him in order to produce the better map. Not all ecus are equal I remember this when I was deliberating between pectel and motec on my Subaru. In this case we have equal ecus but not necessarily equally developed software. It's the software development that will determine exactly what features the mapper has available to them and it's those that enable him to produce a better map, ie. Smoother, more efficient, better boost control, control of useful features.

My natural reaction would be to assume the Cobb has the lead because of how extensively it is used, but I'm not sure that's the case.

You have the very capable skills of thistle on one hand, but you have have th entire development team of ecutek on the other, who only do ecus all day long, nothing else, and it's all they have been doing for about ten years now.

I only have clues of info to suggest ecutek might be ahead, such as the fact that the 2011 software has been working for a while now, and that their original GTR software was up and running and working really well before John even got involved in making the Cobb what it is today.

The only other significant thing I can think of is the speed density thing. I know John is working on it, but Iain tells me it's been working on the ecutek for sone time now and not as a choice of simply maf or map but switchable within the map when desired with a smooth transition.

I have no real need for speed density at the moment, but that's an indicator to me that ecutek may be in the lead development-wise.

But I need more to go on, so if anyone could actually come up with some examples of the intricate differences, I'm sure it would help me, and maybe a lot of other people to make an informed choice rather than astatement like, "all the fastest cars have cobbs" or "you can't sell on an ecuteck". I think that Cobb statement is true but since mapping for the drag strip is much easier than making a mild mannered practical and smooth road car, that statement doesn't help me much. I know the ecutek statement is true but again to me it is immaterial in my consideration of which to purchase.

I'd appreciate any facts on the differences, rather than subjective statements if possible.
 
#12 ·
Iain litchfield is looking to obtaining the software for the Cobb so that he is able to cater for the demands of cobb users also, he would therefore be ideally placed to make those clear distinctions for you. It is clear to me which he prefers at present. The clincher for me though is the fact that litchfields and ecutek have been pulling apart a my11 already to completely understand the dynamics to provide better tuning, not clear if
GTC have that capacity and investment capability. I also like that the ecutek tuning is performed on your car with you in situ, rather than via email exchange and if you let litchfields perform servicing and upgrades they will know you car and tune It Appropriately.
 
#13 · (Edited)
A very good question :thumbsup:, however it's one that we will never get a definitave answer to, there is almost certainly not a black & white answer.

So to declare my position. I have been a GTC / Cobb customer since quite early on, and have no experience of ECUTek. Here are my random thoughts on the question.

In the early days it was an easy choice to go with Cobb, although ECUTek had a lot of experience, they were very new to the R35 GT-R and there was no real data available, wheras the Cobb AP was well established in the US, with a large and growing customer base, with plenty of data to back up the gains.

Add to that the great convenience of doing the firmware upgrade yourself, data logging and tuning via email, and the ability to load and try different maps, or go back to standard and it was a very easy decision which way to go.

I have a completely standard car except for a GTC Stage 2 tune and have over the last 2 Years been very happy with the performance and power delivery. It has done an 11.05 1/4 mile however my main sport is Sprinting, the tune knocked seconds of a typical lap. I am always amazed how "slow" the car feels when I uninstall the AP when taking it in for a service..

Howerver in the tuning world things do not stand still and both the Cobb & the ECUTec have developed in leaps and bounds over the last 2 Years. Remember as well as Thistle who is responsible for some of the mapping inovations there is a large team back at Cobb in the US.

The Cobb AP is however far more than just an ECU tuning tool. ( I could say it's a way of life, but that might be overstating it a bit. ;) ) I also have and use the TCM upgrades that the Cobb allows to the Launch and look foreward to LC4 that I am sure will emerge one day. I have frequently used the DTC reset functionality and value the clutch relearn and adjust that the Cobb makes possible. Looks like we will also soon have the ability to relearn TPMS codes for alternate wheels. :thumbsup:

So all very positive for the Cobb, but I will admit that if I was making a decision Today it would be more difficult. Now that my car is in it's 3rd Year I will almost certainly start taking it to Litchfield's for servicing.

Because of that I will look to them for oil, brake disk & pad change advice and if I can be persuaded that changes to the exhaust or intakes can be done and still stick within the noise limits for places like Goodwood & Castle Combe, then it's all to easy to have them do that as well. ;) So at that point it would be very convenient to also have the ECUTek tune and have it all neatly looked after by the same people??

My gut feeling of an answer is that the performance gains of both tuners are similar. I would however like to see a few graphs for the ECUTek, there are loads around for the Cobb, but I have yet to see one for the ECUTek? At any point in time one may have an edge in a particular area, however they are keeping eachother honest, inovating of their own right and also responding to what the other does. Having them both is of great benefit to us all. :thumbsup:

I do not know if the ECUTek can do on the road logging? But would be very reluctant to give up this feature. Having Ben / Thistle able to look at and respond to real world logs, on the road, track and drag strip is very valauble and gives great peace of mind.

However if you live close to Litchfield / use them for servicing I would say it makes sense to go with ECUTek, if not then you are probably better off with GTC / Cobb.

All of that said even if you go with ECUTek, I would still advise owning a Cobb just for the TCM functions, DTC reset, TPMS learning etc. :D


Rich
 
#14 ·
Doubt you'll ever get right under the covers as to the differences. I thought Litchfield already supplied Cobb as well as Ecutek?

The differences are no doubt minimal but for me i like the convenience of tuning on the fly, having the ability to change maps myself using the Cobb & also alter mapping on the fly via the cruise control. The Cobb has other uses such as datalogging, performance testing & collecting/clearing error codes.

Outputs appear very very close & i'm sure the on road drivability is very similar in the 2 systems so really all about personal choice. Even small factors like location as i'm over 200 miles away from GTC & 160 miles from Litchfields so sending the map via email & me uploading it is a far cheaper option.

Very likely i'll look to Litchfields for servicing later in my cars life & i'd certainly trust them with my car, but for now Middlehursts being only 5 miles from me are the easier option.

Really glad both are so close as it makes deciding between them pretty much a personal choice which is a great thing for GT-R tuning.

Be interested to see what increase the new filters, intakes & injectors has made to mine.

Where have you noticed the biggest differences with your Stage 2? Not sure i'm getting better economy as the desire to depress the loud pedal is too great but other than that the uplift in performance is everywhere in the rev range & truly epic. Still enjoy switching between tune & stock when out on the road to remind me how big the gap is.
 
#15 ·
To my knowledge exutek does map switching. I noticed someone in this thread mentioned it and so I questioned but it's not been answered yet. I am sure I have heard that ecutek is already capable of logging and remote mapping too, or maybe I'm getting confused. Someone please chime in!!
 
#16 ·
Straight lift from the Ecutek website :

RaceROM Features In Depth

RaceROM Features

EcuTek RaceROM was developed to enhance the standard OEM ECU with additional features. These are some of the features that are implemented in the range of ECU supported by RaceROM.

Currently, RaceROM is available for Subaru electronic-throttle vehicles, and will be available for Nissan GT-R R35 shortly. Other vehicles will be supported in the future.

General RaceROM Features

These RaceROM features are generally available on all vehicles.

Map Switching

Map switching gives you the ability to swap between two calibrations that can be tailored to your requirements. For example:

"Road Mode" and "Race Mode", can provide two sets of maps for civilised driving to conserve fuel, and then a high performance calibration for track days or racing.
"Valet Mode" A low performance mode if you have to put your car into someone else's care.
"Anti-Theft Mode" A mode where the car just doesn't work unless you know how to change maps.
Switching calibration can be done in several different ways, including whilst driving.

Each calibration can include its own set of other RaceROM features, such as flat-foot shifting or auto throttle downshift blip.

Per-Gear Boost Control

Per gear boost control allows separate boost calibrations for each gear, thereby maximising boost control options and flexibility. For example, boost may be reduced in 1st gear to prevent wheel spin, but raised in 3rd-6th for increased performance.

Per-Gear Rev Limits

This feature allows per gear rev limits to be configured. It could be used to improve 0-60 times by allowing a higher 2nd gear limit to just hit 60 mph / 100 km/h in 2nd, whilst preserving the lower rev limit in other gears.

And specific to GTR`s :


Nissan GT-R: Wide Range Boost Limit Maps

The standard ECU uses 8-bit maps to restrict boost pressure, you can now use wide range boost limit maps to increase the boost limit to higher levels.

Nissan GT-R: Upshift boost spike prevention

When running increased levels of boost, the ECU can be programmed to maintain a steady boost pressure to avoid boost spikes while changing gear.

Nissan GT-R: RaceROM Boost Controller

The desired boost can be controlled using the cruise control switches. The boost setup can be displayed on the GTR's LCD display too.

Nissan GT-R: MAF Left-Right Swap

Several aftermarket intercoolers switch the intake plumbing in relation to the stock intercooler. This switches the input from the MAF sensors to ensure correct fuelling to each bank of the engine.

Nissan GT-R: Large fuel injector support

Injectors over 800cc are not supported by the original ECU as standard. This enhancement allows the use of almost any size of injector.

Nissan GT-R: Extra Parameter Logging

GTR RaceROM enables FlashCAN GTR tuning software to measure & record extra diagnostic parameters, not accessable as standard. These parameters include knock correction, boost error, timing adjustment, mass airflow per bank and many others.

Nissan GT-R: Visual knock warning

Shows a visual warning of knock using the dashboard's check engine light.
 
#17 ·
I had an Ecutek remap on my evo 8 many years ago and I have to say it was faultless what with the remap and a zaust my evo gsr 260 went to 360hp that still to this day was my best ever remap experience, with the car still driving perfectly, perfect cold starts, perfect idle, no weird random stalling etc etc.
 
#19 · (Edited)
No one except Litchfield has Ecutek's GTR tuning software, or at least no one that is talking about it openly on forums and showing results. Just about every other significant GTR tuner all over the world (except Japan because they like their own stuff) and now users have Cobb's GTR tuning software and its use and results from it are all out there on the forums (especially NAGTROC) being discussed daily. So that makes comparison feature by feature a little difficult, but all the "new" features except speed density and throttle mapping have been a part of our tuning software for between 7 and 20 months, and if you look at NAGTROC you'll find nearly all the listed innovations described by me first (including throttle mapping and speed density this year), so long ago that most of them are no longer mentioned as they are in use on over a thousand GTRs.

I've been putting an average of nearly full time hours into developing ONLY the GTR ECU for nearly 2 years with 3 years reverse engineering on the same processor on the Evo before that, plus Joe Graham has also full time on GTR until very recently, and they have extensive experience of earlier Nissan models using the same operating system. That is just on the reverse engineering and firmware development side.

I chose pure speed density because it is best on the GTR based on my assessment of the data which shows enhanced smoothness in all engine operating conditions. I did not choose it because MAF sensors were maxxed because using alternate MAF sensors AND larger housings has been routine for some time and they don't max until about 1500 HP. The problem is that the size of the turbos/inlets that some of our tuners are now using gives problems with MAF readings across their entire voltage range. What we've found is the cars that need speed density because of stability (rather than stock MAF sensor flow limitation in larger tubes), need it everywhere. Our tuners based in the US and Middle East in particular tend to use rather large intakes and turbos compared to the UK (except SVM) which gives us a lot of information about what is needed to produce a fast GTR, which is why you'll find Cobb running nearly all the 9 second cars and winning our class in Time Attack USA last year. There wasn't actually a need for speed density until January if you were already using large MAFs and aftermarket MAF sensors. I was avoiding developing it unless it was necessary. To make blended speed density would be a few days of coding, but there is no need to complicate things further and our tuners greatly appreciate the smoothness in all operating conditions from this choice.

With regards to map switching and realtime mapping, the variety of maps that can be switched and the customisation is very advanced. I could switch between virtually limitless maps but chose to limit to 9 for clarity. We can for example tune from stock to over 1000 HP with just a single flash at the start to setup realtime, and a single flash at the end to store it permanently in the ECU. The desire to have this in the new car was what has produced the delays in adding support. Cobb have a MY12 (= our MY11) but it arrived a month after would have been ideal and unfortunately wasn't in the same place as Joe or I due to the company moving from Utah to Texas. However, I have to say Litchfield's work on the MY12 has been most impressive.

So Adam, if you look you'll find more innovation going on than you realised as what seems new all happened with our product ages ago in the wonderful crucible that happens when you have people like AMS, Switzer, SVM/GTC running 9 second cars, and GOTO, Forged Performance, Stillen (and many others) competing in circuit/road course events. Many of the technically savvy UK users like Rich-GT and charles charlie (and many others) have seen the progress of the product as it has developed, whereas you've arrived at the GTR party a little later. Have a look on NAGTROC at my earlier posts and you'll see how early some of this stuff has been developed and how we identified the need for it first. The sales and results don't come from being a "me too" product. Apart from being a bit later on the MY12, I would be interested to see any area where we've been behind.
 
#20 · (Edited)
So would I John, that's why I'd like to see a like for like comparison between the capabilities if the software.

I am torn between wanting to get involved in the mapping and just wanting to forget about it.

I feel at the moment that the price if the Cobb is for the hardware. That pains me purely because I have laptops and obd2 cables which are far more powerful. The ap is just s portal for mapping much like downloading ecu lashed used to be only it was free.

If the features of ecutek that I am hoping for are forthcoming then this is probably going to be one of those questions of going for the product that is chosen by the tuner you have the most faith and trust in.

That just means asking Iain and most probably Ben objective questions and deciding based on their answers. Pretty much square one for me then!

So far all I know is that I've never heard Iain say a bad thing about the Cobb but that puts a tick in both columns!

So far Ben hasn't been quite so gracious about the ecutek! :(
 
#22 ·
So far all I know is that I've never heard Iain say a bad thing about the Cobb but that puts a tick in both columns!

So far Ben hasn't been quite so gracious about the ecutek! :(
It wouldn’t be the first time :( :rolleyes:

Anyway moving on. The Ecutek vs Cobb thing has been done before and I have said what I think about these two excellent products, nothing has changed in my mind and I’m sure in another years time my view will be the same. The end user won’t be disappointed with either product as John's post above proves :thumbsup:

We will have the Cobb Tuner software (have played with it a bit recently) as the number of enquires we get for Cobb custom tunes is ever increasing :) In fact I rang to speak to Scott at Cobb not long ago but the investment in other priorities like some more ramps and the new Consult3+ took precedent.

Rich, Ecutek will shortly release the OBD cable and software which will allow us to provide remote mapping for customers that can’t make it over to us :clap: and it will also enable the use their powerful data logging and analysis software :)

I’m glad you are happy with the results from your Stage2 upgrade Brendan :) Look forward to working on your car again.

Regards

Iain
 
#23 ·
Thistle

Is there any known differences in torque/bhp between the 2 given the same car and mods to work with?

Reason i ask is that I have heard from several sources than ECUTEK gets slightly higher torque than the Cobb, but at the sacrafice of a very small amount of ponies at high revs.

Is this a load of bull or something you are aware of?

David
 
#25 ·
Agree with Iain as I usually do (it is Ecutek that have been unpleasant about me) and Ecutek have clearly made a lot of improvements. However, the power and torque possible on stock turbos hasn't moved since late 2009 when proper boost control was possible. This along with knock logging greatly improved the stage 1 and 2 cars. Since then later developments are new features and unlocking higher mod states.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I am most likely only a one of a few who has tried both on my car on here

I'm in the litchfield camp now after a cobb map had the injectors running 100% for too long on a agressive bespoke map, yes you might get more power but you need your engine to run after another 20K miles....
 
#32 · (Edited)
A bespoke map is not finished until datalogs and revised map have gone back and forth. Did this occur and do you still have the logs? I am puzzled too as your original post that was emailed referred to my name yet I didn't see logs.

Just curious to know what went wrong as I am always telling people to reduce boost or buy injectors and Ben is as well.
 
#28 ·
I'm also very pleased with my Litchfield Stage 2. It has totally transformed the performance and even improved the fuel economy a little too. This is the first time I've ever had a car tuned. It was a last minute decision after chatting with David Yu who I met at Litchfields. Despite it being a last minute decision Iain kindly did all the work while I waited. Very impressed all round! Andrew
 
#52 ·
I'm glad you're enjoying your Litchfield Stage 2 Andy, as I said on the other thread, I was sure you would!

Just for clarification (and so I don't get dragged into any arguments), I was not advocating Ecutek over Cobb or vice versa, merely reassuring Andy that such an upgrade would be completely safe and completely mindblowing (from either company).

I was completely delighted with the excellent service Iain's company provided for my 24 month service and will be following his developments with great interest.

However, as things stand, I am also very happy to let Ben at GTC continue to map my car.

:thumbsup:
 
#31 ·
I was not going to say anything until people started asking for comparisons, but a polite and respectful comparison should not be a problem. Consumers need the information to be able to decide both between tuners and products. Competition and comparison improve things.
 
#33 ·
Interesting thread!
I had an 09 GTR with a Stage 2 Cobb and it was a transformation from the standard mapping that the car came with.

There is a lot of technical talk on this thread, but I can only judge from experience and 25,000 miles in R35 GTR's

For my new MY11 car I chose to let Iain loose on it rather than use the Cobb, and apart from the new car being almost as quick as the stage 2 Cobb from standard, the Ecutec Stage 2 with full Milltek and air filters is incredible.

The main difference is the drivability with so much torque that the performance is just there from far lower RPM through the gears. This linked with the ability to adjust the turbo boost from the steering wheel (which also alters other settings as well) the flexibility and options are endless. This coupled with the 'Save' mode gives me every different way of driving the car and I can almost pretend to be 'economical'

With full boost and in R mode throughout, the car is supremely quick and hopefully on track will give me all I can cope with. I am using the car at tomorrows trackday at Silverstone, and although only the South circuit is in use, it will give me a good comparison with the old 09 model with the Cobb stage 2.

I am not saying that the Cobb is worse or better, but I just wanted to judge the difference and give Iain Litchfield the opportunity to show me what the Ecutec can do with his 'personal' touches. Iain has never over exaggerated the potential, and in my opinion he probably undersells himself. His knowledge of the new MY11 is so vast having stripped one done to its bones and rebuilt it that I have enormous confidence in the knowledge that he knows what he is talking about.
Thank you Iain
 
#34 ·
I didn't want this to turn into a slanging match so if people see it that way I am sorry.

I'd actually like this thread to become a lot more technical. Both iain and John know me so will know the level of technical detail that appeals to me.

I have experience of iains customer and I know it to be excellent but ibtecently ordered a part from Ben and also found it to be great. No complaints there. Ben if I tell you which of your comments I wasn't keen on it will just give more credit and publicity go them and I don't need or want to do that, especially if it causes arguments.

I'd rather keep this technical and with that in mind i'll keep asking questions

John, going back to the ecuflash days the software was clunky and not very user friendly. Is the tuner version of the Cobb designed to be very user friendly or is most of the development aimed at the hardware since most users won't be bothered by the tuning side of things?

Obviously the ecutek side of this is irrelevant as it's not yet at all available to the end user without spending prohibitive money.
 
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