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Discussion Starter #481
This is not a 'popularity poll' this is a search for truth.

To reduce it to just a fashion show makes you look even more shallow.

Simon, explain your thinking behind your assertion about the brakes.
 

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Do you not get it yet Mycroft?

We all realise that there is no way you're going to be able to either understand or agree with the corrections to your drastic mis-information. So this is not to decide popularity, just to see if there is anyone reading who is worthy of spending any more time discussion it.

The quest for truth appears to have ended. You are just a stone in the shoe of this thread, so we're pausing to tip it out.
 

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Discussion Starter #483 (Edited)
Originally posted by SDB
The quest for truth appears to have ended. You are just a stone in the shoe of this thread, so we're pausing to tip it out.
I like the stone in the shoe analogy.. :D

Just keep posting your tosh and I'll keep correcting you!

Mass, graphs, grip/slip, co-effs, you name it, I'll put you right.

Why don't you carry on with some more of your errors... don't let common sense stop you! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #484
I will re-iterate...

A vehicles' wheels on the move will have some distinct types of weight/forces acting upon them, the first is the 'natural' weight shared by each wheel, at a constant speed this remains [if aerodynamically neutral] this is basically the weight of the car when stationary, you will have seen this on some tests as figures presented like these... F/R 55/45.

That figure really only 'works' on a stationary car.

Another force is the aerodynamic one, I hate the term aerodynamic as it is so 'wrong thinking' and causes, by its use, much misunderstanding.

For example many people have an immediate image when they hear or see this word, many will see the section of a wing with little flow lines around it... I bet that is indeed what many of you saw in your minds eye, now do me and yourself a favour, try to entirely remove that image from your thinking here.

Get in your car and go for a drive, wind the window down and ensuring it is safe to do so at about 50mph, stick you hand out, fingers out-stretched [but closed] now rotate it... yep it behaves just like you would imagine a wing would do... but your fingers and palm are not really much of a copy of that image in your minds eye is it!

The only benefit that the wing section provides is to be more efficient at pushing air downwards providing lift, that along with the fact that that shape can also be modified by further 'little wings' called flaps.

All vehicles will have a tendency to try to behave like a wing.

The front will be forced up just a touch, the rear will take more weight, the rear spings depress and the air at the front acts on even more of the underside of the car... keep going and you will flip.

To understand the force that does this go to the 'Ekranoplane' thread from a while back.

But despite this it is possible to force an apparent weight to be placed on the car wheels.

The third aspect is weight transfer, successful use of any cars power means that the power has to be put to good use, now if you put 1000lbs of real torque through a huge tyre that has only enough weight to take 300lbs of torque before spinning then your power has been neutered, by applying weight [by whatever means] to that tyre you gain traction, this is simply a ground pressure phenomenon.

Now, too much weight transfer in a turn will also be detrimental to the performance as it will force the tyre to use much of its quotient of adhesion in just keeping to the line chosen, leaving little for the forward motion, so again the applied power overcomes the limit.

If there is one attribute that makes the best of weight transfer it is this... SMOOTHNESS.

This is one of the least broadcast but the most important attribute that any suspension can acquire.

On the face of it this seems such an odd thing to say, we all believe our suspension operates smoothly we 'feel' the wheel move up and down absorbing the road contours and with that big spring and damper acting against the weight of the car itself it appears entirely counter intuitive that there could any real real jarring and judder during its operation.

Every respect this 'belief' is wrong... in fact I will go so far to say that you would be hard pushed to be more wrong.

We'll take a look at some of the components that cause this lack of smoothness.

We start with one of the biggest components in the suspension, the Coil spring, remember that a Coil spring is just effectively a wound Torsion bar and that is its downfall, many manufacturers do not treat these springs to a final piece of 'tempering', when we wind a piece of steel so that it behaves as a spring the process will cause stresses within the material itself these will mean that in places both the incremental rate and displacement are uneven, this happens on every coil spring without a single exception.

To have springs like that on any car will reduce its performance and worse still if the springs are not re-tempered they will over time sag.

This final tempering has a name well known to many of us, for all the wrong reasons... they are said to have been 'PRANG'D' and that is pretty close to what happens to them, the manufacturer at the last will strike them with the full anticipated load that they will ever have to endure for just a moment, like they had been struck with a huge sledge-hammer.

This single trick re-stresses the springs perfectly, but not all evenly, after being prang'd the springs will all be slightly different in height and have slightly differing rates now the manufacturer can go 2 ways after this.

First he can match them all in pairs for height, this is the most common approach, it is cheap and easy but not perfect, these springs may be that same height and will not sag but will almost certainly of different rates!

The better and much more expensive way is for the manufacturer to match the springs for rate [another labour intensive operation] and then supply a shim to sort the mismatch in height.

If you pay about £200/250 for a set of 4 springs then you will almost certainly getting the former or even un-prang'd units, if you are paying £400/500 then you are getting the real Mc Coy.

The difference is that properly 'matched for rate' springs will give you far greater cornering speeds. [providing you do all the other things that such wonderful pieces of metal need]

Let’s look down the scale of things and the next item to attract our attention is the ARB [anti-roll bar]

The ARB is frankly a damned nuisance for the suspension designer as far as fundamentals go, its effects can be less than helpful sometimes and a real boon at others.

We all should know its’ function so we won’t dwell there but to my mind on fast road cars the only place where rose jointing would be of benefit is in its connection to the lower arms.

I couldn’t be bothered to go that far myself so just bought some metalastic bushes for my car from Oz.

Along with new bushes where the ARBs fix to the bodyshell this made a huge difference to the manner of their operation, they remain supple but everything is now working ‘earlier’ [less compliance] and again it all works as a piece, there is smoothness to its operation, you don’t have quite so much slack which can cause a slight slap as it ‘catches up’.

Tightening up the operation of the ARB may just be one of those cheap mods that make a difference, the state of some that come off a 5 year old car!

Go for the cheap and hardest polybushes they’ll cost you 20/30 nicker and a Saturday of cursing and swearing Try to use the factory body fixes/bushes, they will cost a bit more.

Grease, get yourself off to a Chandler, if you live near the coast or an inland waterway/canal you will have one nearby, you ask for a tub of Propellor grease, this is the stuff that is smeared on to any thing that is subject to ‘wash’ this stuff is tenacious and can easily last at least one Winter in the wettest of places, when re-assembling any thing with that has a rubber/ metal interface and is subject to water splash then this is the only stuff to use. Try to get the Evinrude Multi-Purpose with Lithium… not cheap!

If your suspension has grease points you can also buy a ‘wash-proof’ equivalent of the one you would normally use, do it!
 

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creepy.

Do you want us all to go back to the begining of the thread and repost everything in turn?

Everyone was able to read your post the first time.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that all the evidence points to the fact that you're wrong, and that everyone here is completely aware of that.
 

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Jeez, with all these Einstein-like theories being chucked about, I feel that both of you are right.

Both of you should also be on Top Gear for the most boring car person award thing. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #487
Simon, since you have muddied the waters so much I have re-iterated the first 3 posts into one, you have lost the arguement, the plot and what little credibility you once had here, I think you can either attempt to move on or go back to driving a car sideways for a long time, the longer the better many might say, but that would be uncharitable, and you do need charity to be shown, so I have tried to restart this without your whining posts eveywhere.

It is your choice, go back to being a semi-proficient monkey twiddling a steering wheel or try to be part of this thread again!

I am half way through the next instalment to this, try to think before you post this time around.

Thank-you.
 

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Mycroft, all you have done with that post is avoid answering Simon's questions YET AGAIN, and try in vain to divert the thread back to what has already been discussed.
 

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ROFL - You're like a cartoon. It's incredible.

Anyone who is interested in the mind of the mycroft, go and see what was currently happening on the previous thread to this, before mycroft "restarted it". Grow up young man.

go back to being a semi-proficient monkey twiddling a steering wheel
Or howabout I Continue ...

1) to co-run one of the most popular motoring websites on the planet

2) development driving for some of the most respected and well known names in the road car and motorsport industries.

3) to manage a significant part of the FIA World Rally Championship

4) to compete as a semi-professional driver in rallies throughout the uk and europe

5) to earn a nice living from it.

Maybe all of the companies and individuals associated with the above make it possible because they don't understand what a fake I am?? Maybe i've just been really lucky??

What do you do mycroft?

1) Irritate almost every uk based car forum to the point that many of them have actually banned you (something so incredibly rare - you are only the 3rd person in the entire history of scoobynet to be banned).

2) Keep your image and identity a secret.

You're AMAZING!
 

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I have no desire to be involved in this any more.

I know I've said this before, but both curiosity and a desire to help have lead me back here a couple of times.

If anyone wants me to comment on anything in future, please do not hesitate to email me and I'll do my best to help.

All the best

Simon
 

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Discussion Starter #491
Originally posted by SDB
Or howabout I Continue ...

1) to co-run one of the most popular motoring websites on the planet
Please go back from whence you came, you are becoming the biggest troll on the internet!

Originally posted by SDB
Or howabout I Continue ...

2) development driving for some of the most respected and well known names in the road car and motorsport industries.
A job which I suggest you cherish, you may not have it for very long if you keep making such a fool of yourself here.

Originally posted by SDB
Or howabout I Continue ...

3) to manage a significant part of the FIA World Rally Championship
See above!

Originally posted by SDB
Or howabout I Continue ...

4) to compete as a semi-professional driver in rallies throughout the uk and europe
See above!

Originally posted by SDB
Or howabout I Continue ...

5) to earn a nice living from it.
See above!

Originally posted by SDB
Or howabout I Continue ...

Maybe all of the companies and individuals associated with the above make it possible because they don't understand what a fake I am?? Maybe i've just been really lucky??
Maybe these Companies and Individuals will come to realise this in the coming months. You don't strike me as particularly lucky in my books.

Originally posted by SDB
What do you do mycroft?

1) Irritate almost every uk based car forum to the point that many of them have actually banned you (something so incredibly rare - you are only the 3rd person in the entire history of scoobynet to be banned).
This is the real root of all this at last, you have the guts to admit it, I'm really sorry for you Simon, your 'vendetta' has taken hold of your senses.

I'm good, but you are my best victim yet.

You make Salt/Pepper/Vinegar look like an amateur, you're more screwed up than he ever was and remember he started a hate site!!!

:D

Originally posted by SDB
What do you do mycroft?

2) Keep your image and identity a secret.
Yep, and you wonder why?

You are as mad as a pink courgette for gawds sake.

Originally posted by SDB
You're AMAZING!
For once you're right!
 

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Discussion Starter #492 (Edited)
SDB said:
I have no desire to be involved in this any more.

I know I've said this before, but both curiosity and a desire to help have lead me back here a couple of times.

If anyone wants me to comment on anything in future, please do not hesitate to email me and I'll do my best to help.

All the best

Simon
OH FOR GAWDS SAKE.... HOW MANY 'CURTAIN CALLS' DO YOU WANT???

GET-OUTTA-HERE :D

Give us all the one thing only you can give...

Your absence!
 

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Mycroft said:
Please go back from whence you came, you are becoming the biggest troll on the internet!
LMAO

Pot calling the Kettle black perhaps Mycroft?


And after that hate site posting your address, I should imagine that one of these day's your insulting people may come to be your downfall.
 

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Discussion Starter #495
Much 'play' is made of putting springs/shockers with higher rates into the system, you will have seen things like '20% uprated' and the like.

I won't bother with what they all mean as that is fairly self-explanatory.

What is of importance is whether or not you need these items and if you do what should you bear in mind.

The first thing to keep in fore of your thinking is that the real objective with traction is to keep the wheels on the ground, 4 wheels will always have more traction than 3 or 2.

Lifting that inner wheel may look cool but it is not and on the road it can lead to disaster!

Now the quandary is that the suspension fitted to most cars is set for ordinary road use and you are 'accepting' the manufacturers best guess at what you want, he will always be wrong as far as enthusiasts are concerned.

So the question you must ask is by how much was he out!

The odds are that for a still road-fast car not very much!

To get a true road-fast car you do not want track-like suspension set-ups, it is rather galling to have a car that looks like a shark has all the power of a shark but is a flounder on the A34, A417, A38 etc..

To the poor but wise man the trick, just as with staying on or moving to 17s', is getting the best from the smallest incremental change.

Performing some of the little changes as shown in the above post will gain you much but it won't be enough for many.

First obstacle to tackle is the 'lowering the car' problem... how far?

Well the plain fact is that lowering will drop both the COG and the 2 Roll Centres, the latter will lessen the transfer across the car on the axle lines but the amount as shown in the graphs provided by SDB is not that great and some of the negatives need serious consideration, the fact that around my way we have one chap in a Supra MKIV that has been lowered so much that when in any urban environment it potters around like a geriatric with his first Zimmer-frame, he is a bloody nuisance, I flash my lights and shout at the fool regularly, 400hp and it is a damned road-block, dropped just 45mm!!! Nothing is more 'Max-power' in my eyes!

The truth is that perhaps just 20mm is as much as any person ever needs to take off the front and just 15mm off the rear, that really is it!

Always reduce the rear less than the front, it maintains the expansion differential that exists from front to rear under the car.

So, what really counts when buying springs apart from ensuring they have been prang'd?

Well the next thing to ask for from the spring man is an odd request [another :D] that is what is its' base resonance... to explain extract from the 22B site:-
I am sure I'm not alone in using the cheap and easy gifts the computer bestows us all so readily, for example I have a £50 mini-disc player with a rather good s/hand Sennheiser microphone [£25] and a computer oscilloscope [freeware] I had the opportunity to lay my hands on seven sets of road springs that had the near enough right rates for my car, I hung one front and one rear of each on a wire, used a nice wooden mallet and struck each whilst recording them,
then downloading the sound to my hard disc and then making my choice based on my needs, this cost me peanuts, not so long ago Cooper and mercedes etc would have paid 'thousands' for oscilloscopes and gear to do what I have done for almost nothing.
That is why I have 2 different manufacturers springs on my car and I reap the benefit every day.
The frequency also dictates how quickly the spring recovers from being compressed, we pay great attention to spring compression rates in lb/in, yet just as I have never seen any mention outside of this forum of 'prang-ing', there is no mention of this outside of this forum.
At present the 'best buy' for road-fast cars seems to be the dual rate types, these have only a small drop have only slightly raised rates for the first few inches of travel which then increases rapidly that is actually how the car deals with the road, it needs to deal with the fact that most 'road' shocks will square their effect as the speed doubles.
 

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Discussion Starter #496
Thorin said:
LMAO

Pot calling the Kettle black perhaps Mycroft?


And after that hate site posting your address, I should imagine that one of these day's your insulting people may come to be your downfall.
I may wind up a few people but at least don't follow people around now do I?

Oh, if you mean 34 Wentworth Court, Newbury, that was a 'plant', the Police will be happy to interview you just as they did another Supra owner if you wish to go and annoy the poor pensioner at that address... be my guest!
 

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Discussion Starter #498 (Edited)
FYI, monocoque/unitary base resonance, it really doesn't matter what the car is [unless outrageously large] it will always resonate at around 24 - 32hz this is for steel monocoques, for alloy it goes all over the place [which is good!]

The lower the frequency the better... that is the maxim held by most manufacturers but not by all, the lower frequency effects the choice of components operating on the monocoque, this can in turn mean it is essential to use carefully chosen materials, designs that 'self-damp' and assemble them with higher grade connections [bushes, rose-joints etc]

One bonus of dropping below 30hz is that it is also the point at which a serious drop off in hearing acuity occurs, so that is why big car can appear to have a big car ambience, it isn't just the silence you 'hear', you also feel the frequency as much as hear it, that low throb affects our abdominal diaphragm... it literally feels luxurious! :D

It is possible to do this on a small car, but try making the suspension at a commensuate lower frequency and the cost goes through the roof, small cars have to be light and light components are by their very nature high frequency generators!
 

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Discussion Starter #499
So we have seen that tyres have a specific weight at which they are operating at their maximum effectiveness and this is usually fairly close to the size that came with the car originallly, adding 10% to that 'standard width will bring some benefit but not always as much as you would hope.

Now I'm willing to bet that many will say that it is either the width and stickiness of the tyres that will limit your cars ability to turn, some will say it is spring rates, others the shocker rates, some will say it is a mixture of all... the latter view-point is more right than the rest but there is a single thing that [again] I have never seen on any Enthusiasts web site mentioned yet it does more to get a car round that corner than any other single thing, it works better than an ARB and can perform the same function, it adds grip to a car when really you should be losing it!

Its' name?

Well I like games...
... and we do have an expert on-board...
... so let's test him again...
... obscure name time...
... 'negative slack'.

It can be the simplest and most effective single mod to the front to hugely reduce the slip angle of any car.

It can reduce drag times, it adds to cornering speeds and can cost almost nothing!
 

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I'm guessing /not/ a strut brace, as they get mentioned quite a lot.

Was it something mentioned previously in this thread ?
 
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