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Discussion Starter #81
There is no arguement to win now, the statement made by Simon is manifestly wrong, we experience it in the real World every day.

To be honest this has become a matter of 'personality choice' as soon as I see that I am debating with people such as yourself and other MKIV forum members I will only be a facing an irritating claque of nay sayers.

Can we now move on and try really hard to move this thread too fertile pastures Peter and others here would like to gain from this thread not be regailed with yet another 'Mycroft vs MKIV/Scooby/Tormented souls'

I will say it again, I do not believe we have the right to impinge on Cems goodwill and bandwidth to continue some sad, petty vendetta.
 

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Mycroft said:
There is no arguement to win now, the statement made by Simon is manifestly wrong, we experience it in the real World every day.

To be honest this has become a matter of 'personality choice' as soon as I see that I am debating with people such as yourself and other MKIV forum members I will only be a facing an irritating claque of nay sayers.

Can we now move on and try really hard to move this thread too fertile pastures Peter and others here would like to gain from this thread not be regailed with yet another 'Mycroft vs MKIV/Scooby/Tormented souls'

I will say it again, I do not believe we have the right to impinge on Cems goodwill and bandwidth to continue some sad, petty vendetta.
Now that really is sad - I'm on here (as I'm sure others are) from the MKIV as our site is down at the moment and this is the next best board of interest to me.

As it happens I am genuinely interested in this thread. I know you have a hang-up with Supra owners, but for you to say that you're now not interested any more because I'm a MKIV owner is just a cop out IMO! Just because I disagree with you does not make it a "MKIV vs Mycroft" thing - and anyway, as far as I'm aware its you that visits other boards and slags off MKIV owners, not the reverse!

Perhaps you could stick to the subject matter and respond to my last (on-topic) post in a reasoned and mature manner?
 

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Discussion Starter #84
Mark Ayling said:
Now that really is sad - I'm on here (as I'm sure others are) from the MKIV as our site is down at the moment and this is the next best board of interest to me.

As it happens I am genuinely interested in this thread. I know you have a hang-up with Supra owners, but for you to say that you're now not interested any more because I'm a MKIV owner is just a cop out IMO! Just because I disagree with you does not make it a "MKIV vs Mycroft" thing - and anyway, as far as I'm aware its you that visits other boards and slags off MKIV owners, not the reverse!

Perhaps you could stick to the subject matter and respond to my last (on-topic) post in a reasoned and mature manner?
To repeat myself...

''The only way to prove this one way or another is to move along now and look back at it in the light of the further knowledge we gain.''
 

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Mycroft said:
To repeat myself...

''The only way to prove this one way or another is to move along now and look back at it in the light of the further knowledge we gain.''
"Move on" to me translates into "avoid the point" - why can't the discussion continue on the current subject?

I am genuinely interested.
 

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Another MKIVSupra.net member logging in while our site is down.

This is a fascinating thread, containing some important information of interest to us all.

Interesting links Simon, thank you for posting them. They are fascinating reading well worth saving for future reference.
 

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Terminator said:
Can anyone confirm that the above is safe to down load.:(
Seemed OK to me, my firewall/anti-virus software didn't complain....

Have to say though, its far to techie for me - I'd rather someone who knows what they're talking about explained things in laymans' terms so that I can understand it.
 

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Discussion Starter #92
I can't be certain, but I think Simon may have realised where he has made his mistake [I have seen it for some time], I can dwell on this if you wish :D
 

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Discussion Starter #94
Mark Ayling said:
Seemed OK to me, my firewall/anti-virus software didn't complain....

Have to say though, its far to techie for me - I'd rather someone who knows what they're talking about explained things in laymans' terms so that I can understand it.
How much more laymans terms do you want?

''There is an ideal sectional width of tyre for a given weight and use.''
 

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Mycroft said:
''Can you corner better on your normal tyres or is the the space-saver spare better?''
Well my space-saver had more tread on it (it actually has some) until earlier tonight.
 

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Discussion Starter #97
Let's have some more fun.

Now, some of you will recall this thread, http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6075&highlight=wheel+weight it recounts in my first post what used to be done years ago as a good test for simple static friction.

What I didn't point out [as it was of no real consequence then] is that if you perform that test with the simple carcass then you will only get about 1G.

It is only as you add weight that the static friction nearly doubles.

This is the EXACT opposite to what Simon has outlined, so right from the very start his 'idea' can be seen to be wrong, please do the test and see for yourself.

OK so at 'self weight' the tyre has an SF of '1' and as soon as the weight is applied the SF increases to about '1.7' this corresponds to the lines on those graphs [but as they are generic examples they make it rather conservative]

So we can see [unless we are either blind or stupid] the tyre is maintaining that sudden advantage over self weight, and again Simons 'idea' is not only wrong from the start the error is presnt right up to that point where that 'up-ramp' is lost, that is where on those graphs the red line carries on and the green one starts to fall away from it.

Where Simon has gone wrong is that he has taken the fact that weight transfer across the axle line will on all suspensions systems [except the Active type I have mentioned before] deplete the 'grip' those graphs also work for that phenomenon also and if you go to the link I have posted you get further confirmation of both these facts.

Simple fact to remember through out all protestations to what I am saying here.

''If there is an ideal size of tyre for any car, and we all know that is the case or we would just buy cheap 135s', then there will be a reason for it, that reason is that they cope with the weight, 'direct' or 'applied' better than both smaller and larger sizes, the corollary is then that there must be an ideal weight for size.''
 

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Morning All! :)

Apologies for not replying sooner I've been offline since my last post.

Mark, thank you for the request, certainly :)

I have to say I had a laugh last night. I was speaking to the cheif vehicle dynamics engineer for one of the most famous, successful and respected motorsport companies in the world and (as we were in a jovial mood) said "OH Yeah!!! You've got to see this!" and showed him this thread. Many of the things he said are probably unprintable, but he really hopes mycroft continues to come up with more "Mycroft Laws of Physics" as it's added a new level of humour to his otherwise dull day of designing and developing some of the most performant chassis set-ups on the planet. :D ROFL

Anyway... back to the subject.

I'll come back to Mycroft's most recent deversion from the issues we're discussing (to which he will reply "it's not a diversion its ZZzzzz") later - should it ever be necessary, but first...

the graphs show that there is an optimal weight that can bear on any single tyre
I think I know what mycroft is getting at here, and can be forgiven for making this mistake.

He is thinking that the point where the graph starts to seperate (let's ignore the accuracy of the graph, and all other aspects for the moment) is an "optimal point" where you get the maximum grip for load combination.

Well. You need to think more clearly Mycroft.

Firstly, if it is MASS you are using to add load to the tyre, then any point up that line (remember, we're still assuming it's a straight line) will produce the same performance, as it represents the same ratio of resistance to mass.

Secondly, if you are assuming downforce, weight transfer or other load, then you might as well keep adding load all the way beyond the straight line, and in to the curve, as you're adding to the possible resisting forces.

Any graph that shows an angle of greater than 45deg. supports my statement. [That the y axis more than doubles with each doubling of the x axis]
Where has this gone Mycroft? Do you still stand by this statement as your conclusions based on this new graph have changed that. And please don't say "well it it's more than 45 degrees", because it's LESS than 45 so should show the reverse.

If there is an ideal size of tyre for any car
I have been purposefully ignoring this constant drone, but feel I will go insane if I read it again so..

Mycroft. We can come on to that later. In the mean time, let's just discuss the actual topic at hand. (Again, can't wait for the "well it IS the topic at hand, as it's a vital part of it, blah blah")

---

I am also very interested why mycroft has decided to ignore the questions of Black Bird Blue, which are excellent (well done). I'll leave that to him though, as he I don't have my copy of Milliken with me. Speaking of which, have you spoken to Doug yet? I have a feeling it would be sickening for him to have to read what a laughing stock you are trying to make of his and Bill's icon. For anyone readin, who has not read Milliken, and is concerned that Mycroft's notions are derived from innacuracies in it, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

Keep the questions coming guys.

All the best

Simon
 

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PS

If Mycroft is willing to actually deal with these issues, we'll be able to get on to the crux of the matter which I've been looking forward to for some time. It is a point where we will be able to leave all the graphs behind, etc. I am pointing this out now so that he is not able to say "now you're changing the subject, etc" as I'm not. I am deliberately not changing the subject so that we deal with this one first.

All the best

Simon
 
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