logiclee said:Not wanting to start a slanging match but I suppose it boils down to who do you think has got it right.
The guy who's a circuit instructor, car tester to some of the top name companies, world record holder, works as part of the World Rally Championship, mixes with top chassis designers and has a website dedicated to driving dynamics as well as Scoobynet.
The guy who's read a book.
But the 'question' is does that apply from 1kg on or does the disadvantage only appear after we have exceeded the grip properties of the rubber?paul said:I would have thought it was obvious that in practical applications that a higher weight hinders grip.
I think you will find that Mr Dyson was a very well respected and experienced engineer in the field of Cyclone suction. He had a very good marketing idea.Well Mr. Spock,
Hoover or Mr Dyson... errr
It is amazing that despite not keeping up with the thread or even having any idea of the opposing views or the state of play that you feel able to place your faith so readily in one camp... you sir are obviously a genius!!!logiclee said:Sorry if I may have missed this question..
Is the relationship between the cornering forces and weight linear?
Or to put it another way.
Does a 2000kg car have twice the energy of a 1000kg when taking the same corner at 60mph? What about at 120mph
I would have thought the higher the speed the worse the weight is going to effect you. Am I right in thinking this? It seems to be the case when braking.
Same herelogiclee said:Claudius
Not saying who is right because I don't know.
Actually, I dont think they are really saying different thingslogiclee said:You have your own opinion on who you think is right and I have mine.
Logic would not dictate that. Experience or common sense would.logiclee said:Logic itself would dictate that you would trust someone who has expertise and experience in that particular field.
I like to think so but not in this field.you sir are obviously a genius!!!
Ahh, I see where you are confused OK,Thorin said:Mycroft, this is where I am confused, you said earlier when replying to Simons third comment.
"3/. 'It is unquestionable that doubling the load on a tyre less than doubles the grip it produces (we've all agreed this above).'
WRONG, I question this and I am yet to be orovided with any proof of such."
To me Simons comments on this area made sense and I have no idea where you were going with that arguement.
But then you've just said.
"These [graphs] show that after just a couple of kgs the tyre gains 1.4/1.5 times the bearing load on the 'grip' account."
1.4/1.5 is not double, so therefore Simons point was correct after all?
the grip limits will be reached quicker in a heavier car. so this all getting pointless arguing theory. theory doesnt matter when the car is mid corner just about to break away.Mycroft said:But the 'question' is does that apply from 1kg on or does the disadvantage only appear after we have exceeded the grip properties of the rubber?
Is weight always bad?
That is not the debate, the debate if you want to join in is about the point you have avoided, the real value of this debate is that through its' resolution that 'brown-trouser moment' may just be avoided.paul said:the grip limits will be reached quicker in a heavier car. so this all getting pointless arguing theory. theory doesnt matter when the car is mid corner just about to break away.
I avoid the so called debate because i dont understand it and want to learn, but i now feel the need to ask my own questions as the bickering has clouded the original facts whether they were right or wrong.Mycroft said:That is not the debate, the debate if you want to join in is about the point you have avoided, the real value of this debate is that through its' resolution that 'brown-trouser moment' may just be avoided.
I'd confused myself for a moment.Mycroft said:Ahh, I see where you are confused OK,
200lb downforce gives 280lbs of sideways resistance on those graphs [roughly]...
At 400lbs there is 560lbs the ratio of the difference remains the same, however with every doubling on the downforce [200-->400] there is doubling of the grip [280--->560]
Can you see that? As one doubles so does the other, the ratio of adherence remains at 1.4 / 1.5 but the grip doubles as the weight doubles.
These graphs were presented as proving that the grip lessens immediately from 1kg... they do not do this they clearly show what I have said all along, 'only after the tyre reaches its optimum adherence/weight limit will the tyre start to show diminishing returns for the weight applied.
The graphs don't show that and they were presented as proof, real tangible proof, they are not.Originally posted by Thorin
...but, surely the amount of grip will at best be "very slightly" less than doubled and get progressively less than doubled as you keep loading the tyre. (If that makes sense, this is what I was trying to get at in a previous posting I think, I've slept since then).