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Discussion Starter #21
Matt your asking me questions I don't no and don't need to no.
Dan, I'm asking you questions because you've said that a single TB is better than multiple TBs. You have said in the past that you don't believe my car makes the claimed power and one reason is because the ITBs are restrictive. I'm asking you to prove that they are causing a restriction because, as in the simplest of terms, I'm not seeing it?

All I'm doing is giving you reasons why I chose a single tb, why don't you give hypertune a email tell them your aiming for 1300bhp and ask them what they reccomend I'm sure they will be able to answer all your questions.
I don't need to Dan, the dyno and road tell us everything we need to now about the efficiency of the engine and where the restrictions are.
Why do you need to run 2 bar of boost on your car, why doesn't it make the power at 1.5 to 1.7 bar?

Hypertune said multi tb become very restrictive at 400hp.
On what Plenum and against what size single TB?

Rich at amt had 750bhp at the flywheel and crap old road tyres he also had 19" wheels.
Sorry but I disagree, unless he's somehow managed to overcome physics, which I doubt. I don't understand how every car at TOTB ran the terminals for their power yet Rich managed to run considerably faster; his car was either lighter or he had more power IMHO.

Considering I have 50hp more and better tyres if say I'd be a low 10 high 9.peak power doesn't mean a great deal Matt its the area under the curve what makes a car fast.
You should be in the 9s on your first outing then. What bearing does area under the curve have if you're constantly above 7krpm?

I'm going to do a Santa pod trip and run my car see what it does
By your own logic, you should run 9.8 at 137mph Dan.
 

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Dan, I'm asking you questions because you've said that a single TB is better than multiple TBs. You have said in the past that you don't believe my car makes the claimed power and one reason is because the ITBs are restrictive. I'm asking you to prove that they are causing a restriction because, as in the simplest of terms, I'm not seeing it?


I don't need to Dan, the dyno and road tell us everything we need to now about the efficiency of the engine and where the restrictions are.
Why do you need to run 2 bar of boost on your car, why doesn't it make the power at 1.5 to 1.7 bar?


On what Plenum and against what size single TB?


Sorry but I disagree, unless he's somehow managed to overcome physics, which I doubt. I don't understand how every car at TOTB ran the terminals for their power yet Rich managed to run considerably faster; his car was either lighter or he had more power IMHO.


You should be in the 9s on your first outing then. What bearing does area under the curve have if you're constantly above 7krpm?


By your own logic, you should run 9.8 at 137mph Dan.

I run 2.2 bar matt cause that's what it took on the 67mm turbo, you will have to ask rich about his power I'd have a guess that the duno dynamics read lower than the other dynos in the uk that's why.

You run a 140 at totb rich run 137 thats what I no for sure either richs power was drastically low or yours drastically high?

I raced a 2015 gsxr600 yesterday and blasted it matt there was no race in it and they do a 1/4 mile in 10.8 stock that's a good indication
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
I run 2.2 bar matt cause that's what it took on the 67mm turbo, you will have to ask rich about his power I'd have a guess that the duno dynamics read lower than the other dynos in the uk that's why.
Odd how it must be everyone else that is wrong?

You run a 140 at totb rich run 137 thats what I no for sure either richs power was drastically low or yours drastically high?
I ran a best of 143mph at Elvington Dan, I had picked up damage to the turbo which meant it was only producing fluctuating pressure maxing at 1.5bar. My car is heavy, it's a simple power to weight calculation or do you disagree?
If I run an 8 at the pod this year, what will you claim is not making power then?

I raced a 2015 gsxr600 yesterday and blasted it matt there was no race in it and they do a 1/4 mile in 10.8 stock that's a good indication
Seriously Dan, there's so many variables on the road it's hardly a good comparison. Did you do a drag launch when you were beating these bikes or were you already rolling?

What power did your car make when Paul mapped it Matt and at what boost?
I was told it was 850 at 1.6 bar - it was the first time we hit a brick wall with the filter. It also hit a wall and made 850 at 1.6 bar when Dave Rowe mapped it. And to add, it also made 850 when Mark Harrison mapped it with the filter on, removing the filter we were able to increase that to 927.

3 different dynos, 3 different mappers and 1 same result.
 

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Odd how it must be everyone else that is wrong?


I ran a best of 143mph at Elvington Dan, I had picked up damage to the turbo which meant it was only producing fluctuating pressure maxing at 1.5bar. My car is heavy, it's a simple power to weight calculation or do you disagree?
If I run an 8 at the pod this year, what will you claim is not making power then?


Seriously Dan, there's so many variables on the road it's hardly a good comparison. Did you do a drag launch when you were beating these bikes or were you already rolling?


I was told it was 850 at 1.6 bar - it was the first time we hit a brick wall with the filter. It also hit a wall and made 850 at 1.6 bar when Dave Rowe mapped it.

No drag launch as we was coming out of a roundabout but it shows with good grip I will run a faster time than a 10.8.

My air filter was no restriction at 800bhp we didn't even gain 1 hp.

Yes if you run a 8 matt it shows your car has good power but to warrent over 1300bhp a fully automated gearbox

I've allways said it Matt if your engine has guinenly made 1300bhp at 1.6 bar hats off to twenierob for building such a brilliant engine and to who ever done the cylinder head.

So what your conclusion is if you fitted a single tb plenum you wouldn't gain any hp

So at totb you must of been over 1000hp because you was on race gas?
 

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Discussion Starter #26
No drag launch as we was coming out of a roundabout but it shows with good grip I will run a faster time than a 10.8.
That won't be difficult at the Pod as it has far better grip than Elvington.
You'll loose 0.3-0.4 seconds at Elvington so Rich would really have run 10.4-10.5 at the Pod which still shows he had poor grip. With very good traction, you should be able to see 9.8 but the road is not really a very good indication against a bike coming out of a roundabout mate.

My air filter was no restriction at 800bhp we didn't even gain 1 hp.
You're not running enough power to overcome the filter Dan, how does this have any bearing on either the TBs or what I found regarding the filter on my engine?

Yes if you run a 8 matt it shows your car has good power but to warrent over 1300bhp a fully automated gearbox it needs to be a mid 8
It doesn't need to be anything Dan, this is all just a hobby to me, I'm not in competition with anyone mate. You're the one setting yourself up with your attitude because now you have to run 9.8 at 137 because you're the one making the claims.

I've allways said it Matt if your engine has guinenly made 1300bhp at 1.6 bar hats off to twenierob for building such a brilliant engine and to who ever done the cylinder head.
My car made 1119bhp at 1.7Bar on race gas Dan, I'm not the one making that claim, that's what Owen's made on the dyno. We then ran nitrous and it added 320bhp and 300ft/lb more by 3000rpm, I don't know what it made top end as I was told it lifted on the dyno. Steve did the cylinder head for Rob and I've been told that the head is not yet causing a restriction and it led itself to running a larger precision turbo in the future if I want to.

So what your conclusion is if you fitted a single tb plenum you wouldn't gain any hp
Dan, my honest opinion is that I believe I would see small gains but at the detriment to drivability. Which as a cost/benefit exercise I don't believe is necessary until you're going to dedicate the car away from the road, at least; that's what I'm seeing with my results.
 

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Indeed, I thought the question was are ITBs or singles better...

Most of this is saying that if you have a bigger throttle area, you will get more air into the engine (regardless of how many throttle openings, the total xsec area), which is obvious :)
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Indeed, I thought the question was are ITBs or singles better...

Most of this is saying that if you have a bigger throttle area, you will get more air into the engine (regardless of how many throttle openings, the total xsec area), which is obvious :)
Indeed Tath, what is the xsec area of the ITBs compared to a 90mm and 100mm single?
 

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Your engine has done well matt either way, unless any one has done a true back to back on multi v single tb who knows for sure. I would be very surprised if hypertune was wrong tbh.

The drivebility isn't much diffrent matt the main differences is only between 1-2k rpm mainly or that's what I have found with mine, and that's with mine running a 100mm tb what hypertune don't reccomend for road cars so I'd imagine drivebility would be quite simular from a 90 to multi.

Cossie04 also went from multi to single tb and said there's was no real diffrence.
 

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Indeed, I thought the question was are ITBs or singles better...

Most of this is saying that if you have a bigger throttle area, you will get more air into the engine (regardless of how many throttle openings, the total xsec area), which is obvious :)

The overall area of multi are larger combined than a 100mm throttle body but not every cylinder is taking 100% air in all the time so it doesn't quite work like that.

Also when you have a restriction like the itb and then that restriction is times by 6 it has a massive effect.
 

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The thing what surprises me so much matt is that it's all to do with flow and when a flow specialist has flow tested theulti tbf and said they drop to much flow to be worth having this isn't good enough for you.

If the itb were on sliders when open there is nothing left in the port then yes they would be the best option but they don't the leave a shaft stuck right in the middle of the flow of the air.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Your engine has done well matt either way, unless any one has done a true back to back on multi v single tb who knows for sure. I would be very surprised if hypertune was wrong tbh.
I'm not saying Hypertune is wrong Dan, what I'm saying is, as yet, I've not found the ITBs to be restrictive. My engine hasn't missed a beat since it was first run in back in 2010. Granted it hasn't done high mileage but it's been given plenty of stick.

The drivebility isn't much diffrent matt the main differences is only between 1-2k rpm mainly or that's what I have found with mine, and that's with mine running a 100mm tb what hypertune don't reccomend for road cars so I'd imagine drivebility would be quite simular from a 90 to multi.
I honestly believe that it's actually you who can't tell the difference in the drivability Dan, that's not meant to sound as a dig or disrespectful but the non-linear control of the butterfly has already led you to believe that you're revving faster just be changing to a single TB. In other words, you're just subconsciously adjusting your driving to match the new control characteristics of a big single butterfly.
 

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The thing what surprises me so much matt is that it's all to do with flow and when a flow specialist has flow tested theulti tbf and said they drop to much flow to be worth having this isn't good enough for you.
I've never said it's not good enough for me Dan. What I've continued to say all along is that I'm not experiencing the losses that are being claimed, had I reached a point whereby the ITBs were the restriction, I would have changed them. I believe in your application, you're actually having the opposite effect on your car as it's not a drag car and you won't see any benefit, in fact, I'd say you were actually experiencing losses over ITBs.

If the itb were on sliders when open there is nothing left in the port then yes they would be the best option but they don't the leave a shaft stuck right in the middle of the flow of the air.
Indeed, it is a very valid point Dan and I concede that at some point through the performance characteristics, a correctly sized single will ultimately flow more air than ITBs. What you're not conceding or answering is the point at which that cross over becomes valid.
 

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Matt I no the diffrence in drivebility my plenum has caused but mine is not exactly designed for drivebility as its hypertunes biggest plenum and it still drives ok.

Yes I uderstand what your saying you havnt come across the restriction of itb and I'm very surprised from what I've been told.

There's no way me or you could ever no the answers to them questions unless we spent silly amounts of time and money tested what we both ain't preperred to do.

The only person on the forum who done some what a back to back was smart dj he gain around 70bhp going from a stock plenum to a rips single tb plenum all done by abbey motorsport at the same boost.

That backed up with what amt showed/explained to me and hypertunes said was enough to make me decide a single tb was the way to go.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Matt I no the diffrence in drivebility my plenum has caused but mine is not exactly designed for drivebility as its hypertunes biggest plenum and it still drives ok.
Plenum? I'm not questioning the plenum Dan.

Yes I uderstand what your saying you havnt come across the restriction of itb and I'm very surprised from what I've been told.
That's the point I'm making Dan, I appreciate you value highly what you are being told and I respect that mate, that is said sincerely. I'm just not seeing the restriction as yet so at what point does it become beneficial to change over?

There's no way me or you could ever no the answers to them questions unless we spent silly amounts of time and money tested what we both ain't preperred to do.
If I hadn't of already changed to DBW, I would have happily tested back to back but now it's not so easy to do sadly. I wonder if I can persuade Bob to test B2B, that would be a fair comparison wouldn't you agree?

The only person on the forum who done some what a back to back was smart dj he gain around 70bhp going from a stock plenum to a rips single tb plenum all done by abbey motorsport at the same boost.
This is where I honestly think you're getting a little confused Dan. There are huge gains to be had by running a different Plenum design; standard/nismo/greddy/RIPS/Hypertune all have different designs and characteristics. That is not what is being questioned though.

That backed up with what amt showed/explained to me and hypertunes said was enough to make me decide a single tb was the way to go.
Indeed, of course it was going to be better Dan but better than what as now you're adding the Plenum design into the mix. I honestly believe that a single TB is overkill for a road car and the marginal gains will only be apparent on a drag application where it spends most of it's time at or near WOT, would you not agree?
 

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Indeed Tath, what is the xsec area of the ITBs compared to a 90mm and 100mm single?
9500mm^2 for standard, 6362mm^2 for 90mm, 7850mm^2 for 100mm.

That discounts the spindle and plate which even at WOT is still quite a big obstruction, obviously one 90mm spindle is a lot better than 6x 45mm spindles. At a guess of a rectangle 8mm x 45mm for the standard one it would drop the total area by 2000mm^2 odd which still keeps it above the 100mm (ignoring its spindle).

Either way I'd be surprised if one big throttle could ever flow more than 6 little ones. There will be issues with having smaller pipes means more boundary layer area so you might see lower velocity... but I would still favour the 6 over 1 big one. Best solution would of course be 6 nice big roller barrels :cool:
 

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Plenum? I'm not questioning the plenum Dan.


That's the point I'm making Dan, I appreciate you value highly what you are being told and I respect that mate, that is said sincerely. I'm just not seeing the restriction as yet so at what point does it become beneficial to change over?


If I hadn't of already changed to DBW, I would have happily tested back to back but now it's not so easy to do sadly. I wonder if I can persuade Bob to test B2B, that would be a fair comparison wouldn't you agree?


This is where I honestly think you're getting a little confused Dan. There are huge gains to be had by running a different Plenum design; standard/nismo/greddy/RIPS/Hypertune all have different designs and characteristics. That is not what is being questioned though.


Indeed, of course it was going to be better Dan but better than what as now you're adding the Plenum design into the mix. I honestly believe that a single TB is overkill for a road car and the marginal gains will only be apparent on a drag application where it spends most of it's time at or near WOT, would you not agree?

The results you have with itb shows it maybee overkill, although hypertune did completely disagree with that alltough For a 500bhp skyline id say it's overkill myself

The differences are really only the itb are more progressive but it's mainly noticeable at really low rpm this is what I have found so far with mine anyway. Alltough it doesn't drive quite so well as it did with the itb but your right I've changed my driving style slightly
 

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9500mm^2 for standard, 6362mm^2 for 90mm, 7850mm^2 for 100mm.

That discounts the spindle and plate which even at WOT is still quite a big obstruction, obviously one 90mm spindle is a lot better than 6x 45mm spindles. At a guess of a rectangle 8mm x 45mm for the standard one it would drop the total area by 2000mm^2 odd which still keeps it above the 100mm (ignoring its spindle).

Either way I'd be surprised if one big throttle could ever flow more than 6 little ones. There will be issues with having smaller pipes means more boundary layer area so you might see lower velocity... but I would still favour the 6 over 1 big one. Best solution would of course be 6 nice big roller barrels :cool:

But your forgetting not every cylinder is taking 100% capacity of air at a time, your also not including what that spindle does air flow. Your also forgetting say you have a greddy plenum your still restricted by 4" inlet at best. So my air flow will just be slightly restricted by 1 spindle but of course it will have a lot less effect as its supplying 6x cylinders what are not all drawing air at the same time so can accomdate enough air to say every cylinder can have 100% air when the valve opens were as with the itb when the valve opens the air flow is drastically effected by a spindle in the way

Amt allways said on a diffrent port shape they would be brilliant but on the rb26 head there not
 
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