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Not all replica parts these days come from China FFS Younes!!!!

At the end of the day we pay what we feel is appropriate for parts etc. I'm lucky to be in a position to buy all my parts new and branded but I CHOOSE not to because (as an ex-mechanic) I KNOW what parts need to be decent and what parts can be made by Zhang Wei and his mates in a shed in Guangzhou on a Friday afternoon. There are some things that need to be decent such as a head gasket for example but to suggest you need to pay nearly £1600 for a set of HKS intercooler pipes and hoses is just ludicrous and is beyond justification. No sane individual would defend something like that although there are clearly a few on here who feel that that is a fair price for pipes and hoses :chairshot:chairshot:chairshot



Kev - I had 2 RS2000's (not at the same time :chuckle:). My 'best' one was a self-built 2.1 Pinto on twin 48's with forged bottom and Burton head. Funnily enough parts were all secondhand from different places:thumbsup:. Made 205hp on local dyno where operator would not believe me when I said it was self-built. He all but called me a liar and thought it was a crate motor from Burton, Scholar etc :chuckle: :chuckle:

My current 2.0 YB project is being built from bits (specifically) bought from Ebay on the, self-imposed, smallest of budgets in order to prove that it doesn't take big money or branded parts to build an engine. Hell, I bought a turbo for £40 (new) so we'll just have to wait and see.......


Really folks, we've done this branded vs unbranded to death over the years. Can we just accept that we all have different budgets and priorities when buying bits for our cars. It feels sometimes that there's a lot of snobbery and condescension when folks stray from 'the path'....


TT
I like quality parts but no way I’d pay stupid money like some others here just for the sake of a brand. If that part is unique and only available at a premium and I need it I will buy it. I could have gone and blown 6k on Alcon Brakes but went my own way with R35 Brakes at half the price. Same thing for many other parts I searched the best prices and at times bought second hand. If you think Skyline owners are bad may be you need to see what the R35 owners are spending lol.
 

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I like quality parts but no way I’d pay stupid money like some others here just for the sake of a brand. If that part is unique and only available at a premium and I need it I will buy it. I could have gone and blown 6k on Alcon Brakes but went my own way with R35 Brakes at half the price. Same thing for many other parts I searched the best prices and at times bought second hand. If you think Skyline owners are bad may be you need to see what the R35 owners are spending lol.
I can imagine!!!

:thumbsup:

TT
 

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If you end up getting this kit Kev please do a detailed thread on it to show people how good/bad/easy/difficult the kit is to fit. Plus the end result, I***8217;m sure with a bit of fettling it could look great.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Morning guys,

Feeling a little delicate this morning, but just wanted to say at no point did I get upset at any of the comments, I like a good debate every now and again, Joking aside I can easily afford the genuine kit but this wasn't about that, it was about the style and quality of the cheap and cheerful copy body kits, We all like the expensive steak dinners at flash restaurants, but sometimes a burger from McDonald's is good enough, horses for courses and all that.

Anyway, need to feed this hangover, so see you later.

Kev.
 

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To be clear....

I completely agree with you regarding blatant copying and trying to pass off as the real thing (fakes).
In this case, Pandem are their own company and are producing stuff under their own brand. They may look similar to Rocket Bunny style kits but then again, they're not being passed off as Rocket Bunny so all is good in my view.

It's a particular style and there are many takes on it so I don't see what the fuss is about here.....


TT
I missed this at the weekend.

so it seems like pandem/rocket bunny are actually the same company

GReddy

so buying either of these would be buying an original.

I think what Kev is talking about is buying a copy kit not from Pandem, but from one of the usual suspects selling the "style" kits which are in my view a rip off.

The style is very subjective, not my cup of tea but done well I can at least appreciate it for what it is.

On another note Kev I think that if you were in the market for that kind of car as a buyer of a finished car you would pay the extra knowing it was an original kit over a copy.
 

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On another note Kev I think that if you were in the market for that kind of car as a buyer of a finished car you would pay the extra knowing it was an original kit over a copy.
That might be the case in an ideal world but we all know that we NEVER get back what we pay out for parts, genuine or otherwise....!!! It's cold comfort to suggest that someone will pay extra for a genuine kit when in actual fact, most folks are only bothered about what it looks like and if the spray job was decent!

It's interesting how people can self-justify spending X on a part when, to most folks, the price is simply bonkers. Lets take one of my favourite examples....strut braces.....
I could make a functional strut brace for about £10-15 in materials. Even a titanium brace would cost, say, £75-95 in material. Justify then for me, if you will, how it is 'sensible' for folks to spend £1200+ on one.....!!?? So Simon, are you implying that if I spend £1200 on a Nismo titanium strut brace that it will increase the 'value' of my car by £1200?? Also, would NOT having one render my car unsaleable??

Of course not on both counts....


Once again, there are folks who can justify spending (IMHO) disproportionate amounts of money on bits and pieces and there are those that can't. Lets say for a minute that budget is not an issue i.e. the buyer is in a position to spend £6k on a bodykit. Just because you HAVE money doesn't mean that you need to spend it. I tend to find that, with one or two rare exceptions, that peoples sense of value-for-money tends to skew drastically the more funds they have at their disposal.

Thankfully I'm Scottish so the above rule doesn't apply :chuckle:.... I have cash but am tighter than a duck's arse which is why I tend to be 'sensible' when it comes to shelling out for parts. It's not that I couldn't purchase new, branded parts but more the fact that my value-for-money'o'meter is saying a big resounding 'NOT A CHANCE' in most cases.

I find it a constant source of interest when I read this forum how folks have widely varying perspectives when it comes to what's acceptable for something and what is not.....

Because someone chooses NOT to spend (silly) amounts of money on parts shouldn't then make it open season on having a go and saying that they should go and purchase the genuine article at VASTLY greater prices. Some folks on here have a hard-on for Nismo parts and are constantly berating folks who do not feel the same way and are considering buying something else. Unacceptable IMO.

Once again, we should embrace the whole spectrum of the community on here and not shoot folks down for taking a different path to that which we choose for our own cars....



TT
 

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I don't believe I have shot anyone down for what they may or may not choose to do, quite the opposite in fact.


tbh I think you are straw manning abit but I will play along.

Can an amalgamation of £100-150 of materials be worth £1200, well again that is subjective, I can't say I would be running out of my way to pay that for a strut brace.

But I can see why buying a car with one fitted might be more desirable than buying a car with a "cheap" aftermarket one fitted and why people might be ready to spend a few £££ more buying the car with the £1200 part fitted, perhaps not £1200 more but certainly more.

The original question was around assumed quality and fit (and style) but most of my points addressed assumed quality and fit, I don't know how much you know about composites, but I do actually know a fair bit.

When you build a mould for an original part you build in tolerance for shrinkage, sometimes twisting depending on the shape of the part, a whole lot of considerations go into making the mould so that the piece that comes out is fit for purpose. And then after a certain number of impressions are taken from that mould they often have to be reproduced from the original cast to maintain the quality of the produced parts.

what happens with these copy parts is that someone buys a genuine piece and the copier uses that to make his own mould. Now depending on what materials they use for that (proper moulding gel and resins etc) will then define how much shrinkage they get in that "new" mould, the parts they produce from that mould then have their own shrinkage and hey presto in a copy once removed from the original you already have noticeable shrinkage and impact on fitting.

not using proper molding materials (which are much more expensive) to make the copy mould only exacerbates this issue. You then quite often see that the copy parts are not made to the same standard as the original, lighter weight mattings are used so the copy isn't as robust, parts are taken out of the mould before they have fully cured so the mould can be turned around more quickly. All this impacts fitment and overall quality.

the other thing I have seen a lot of (especially with very popular parts - back in the day the veilside C1 kits were a prime example of this) is that copies are taken of copy kits so the fitting problem becomes even worse.

Manufactures of original Kits know they have a generally short window before copies start to be taken so they have to maximise their ROI and generally this means they have to increase their price to reflect the fewer numbers of parts they will sell before the copy market takes up the slack. You might argue that if their prices were lower then people wouldn't copy the kits but in reality it just means the copies would be cheaper.
 

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But I can see why buying a car with one fitted might be more desirable than buying a car with a "cheap" aftermarket one fitted and why people might be ready to spend a few £££ more buying the car with the £1200 part fitted, perhaps not £1200 more but certainly more.
Interesting....:rotz:

You only have to look at the vehicles for sale on this very forum and I'd say quite the opposite of this aftermarket parts desirability is true.

For instance, My Own 500bhp car was in good condition and came with a full known UK History which had almost £40k's worth of genuine tuning parts fitted to it from known quality manufacturers such as Apexi, Cusco, Greddy, HKS, Garret, Do-Luck, Tein and even Nismo etc, etc with a proliferer of receipts from the likes of Abbey Motorsport, Middlehursts or Rising Sun Performance for everything to back this up.

So did this tuner exclusivity make my Skyline a £40k+ purchase? NOPE!

I could have easily broken my car for its parts and earned £20k (or if not even more money) than the relatively small amount my BCNR33 actually cost me to buy. So was I just plain lucky to get such a bargain, Was the car undervalued, Was the the market saturated with similar performance machinery or is it just the simple fact that these genuine parts added sod all value when compared to another 100% stock version of the breed for sale at that exact time?!

If you look at many of the others that have also sold on here, Its a similar story repeated over and over again so I would conclude these tuner bits don't add any significant value once fitted.

JM2PW!:bawling:
 

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I don't believe I have shot anyone down for what they may or may not choose to do, quite the opposite in fact.


tbh I think you are straw manning abit but I will play along.

Can an amalgamation of £100-150 of materials be worth £1200, well again that is subjective, I can't say I would be running out of my way to pay that for a strut brace.

But I can see why buying a car with one fitted might be more desirable than buying a car with a "cheap" aftermarket one fitted and why people might be ready to spend a few £££ more buying the car with the £1200 part fitted, perhaps not £1200 more but certainly more.

The original question was around assumed quality and fit (and style) but most of my points addressed assumed quality and fit, I don't know how much you know about composites, but I do actually know a fair bit.

When you build a mould for an original part you build in tolerance for shrinkage, sometimes twisting depending on the shape of the part, a whole lot of considerations go into making the mould so that the piece that comes out is fit for purpose. And then after a certain number of impressions are taken from that mould they often have to be reproduced from the original cast to maintain the quality of the produced parts.

what happens with these copy parts is that someone buys a genuine piece and the copier uses that to make his own mould. Now depending on what materials they use for that (proper moulding gel and resins etc) will then define how much shrinkage they get in that "new" mould, the parts they produce from that mould then have their own shrinkage and hey presto in a copy once removed from the original you already have noticeable shrinkage and impact on fitting.

not using proper molding materials (which are much more expensive) to make the copy mould only exacerbates this issue. You then quite often see that the copy parts are not made to the same standard as the original, lighter weight mattings are used so the copy isn't as robust, parts are taken out of the mould before they have fully cured so the mould can be turned around more quickly. All this impacts fitment and overall quality.

the other thing I have seen a lot of (especially with very popular parts - back in the day the veilside C1 kits were a prime example of this) is that copies are taken of copy kits so the fitting problem becomes even worse.

Manufactures of original Kits know they have a generally short window before copies start to be taken so they have to maximise their ROI and generally this means they have to increase their price to reflect the fewer numbers of parts they will sell before the copy market takes up the slack. You might argue that if their prices were lower then people wouldn't copy the kits but in reality it just means the copies would be cheaper.
Granted. But then not everyone who makes copies is a complete idiot.....

Believe it or not, not ALL copies come from China and believe it or not, some folks actually DO care about the end product. I knew a guy who made 'copy' parts for a particular tractor. The OEM part used to fail a lot so he designed a 'better' part that didn't fail at all. Sold a lot to folks in the farming community. I don't believe the fitment of this part lead to used tractor prices plummeting because it was not all OEM or folks complaining that the part was not genuine.

So, you see, my point is that copy/replica/call-them-what-you-will parts are not always shit. I grant you, there IS a lot of dross out there (especially from China) but there are still operations who actually give a damn.

Saying that an unbranded part is automatically garbage is a huge disservice to some quite skilled folks out there....



TT
 

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now you are seeing what you want to see to fit your own world view.

I made no comment about the source of copy parts, just described the most common issues with them and more importantly why they occur.

Unless you chop up the original part and remanufacture it to a position that accommodates the natural shrinkage before making your copy mould you are always going to have that problem. But lets be honest, most of the guys doing the copying are not going anywhere near that far.

Your tractor analogy does not work because he made a "better" part, so this was not a copy. In fact in that instance I would expect a tractor with his redesigned part to sell better than one with the OEM.

Again with the unbranded - I never made any comment about the quality of unbranded parts, of ANY description, strut braces, bodykits, tractors, whatever. I have only explicitly referenced COPY kits, and then I have backed that up with the reasons why the vast majority of them suffer from fitment and or quality issues.

three cars all R33 GTR's all mechanically sound, all with decent paint & interior, same age and similar mileage.

1st one is a vspec with a copy 400r bodykit - but fettled so the fit is right.
2nd one is a vpec with a genuine Nismo 400r bodykit
3rd one is a genuine 400r.

in terms of value how would you rank them, all the same because they look the same? Which one do you think would be the more desirable one for most buyers to own? and in reality given the choice between the two with a body kit which one do you think most people would prefer to own, even if you can't tell just by looking at it from the outside?

i can tell you one thing for absolute sure there is a world of difference between every 400r copy kit that I have seen and the genuine nismo item.
 

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now you are seeing what you want to see to fit your own world view.
Likewise.

Unless you chop up the original part and remanufacture it to a position that accommodates the natural shrinkage before making your copy mould you are always going to have that problem. But lets be honest, most of the guys doing the copying are not going anywhere near that far.
Well we can ask them.....Paul at Japsalon makes replica (copy) kits from various manufacturers... TBO, Border, Trial, Veilside etc. They all look very good indeed and I will be buying a set of TBO-style skirts myself very soon. I'm sure he would be only to happy to explain the process he uses.


three cars all R33 GTR's all mechanically sound, all with decent paint & interior, same age and similar mileage.

1st one is a vspec with a copy 400r bodykit - but fettled so the fit is right.
2nd one is a vpec with a genuine Nismo 400r bodykit
3rd one is a genuine 400r.

in terms of value how would you rank them, all the same because they look the same? Which one do you think would be the more desirable one for most buyers to own? and in reality given the choice between the two with a body kit which one do you think most people would prefer to own, even if you can't tell just by looking at it from the outside?
Come on now....you're comparing apples and oranges there. Obviously the genuine 400R will command the greatest money. However, I think that the 'desirability' element you mention earlier is a bit harder to nail down. Lets say someone wants a replica 400R.... if it LOOKS like a 400R and the body and paint are good then I proffer that example 1 and 2 above will have little to split them apart.

i can tell you one thing for absolute sure there is a world of difference between every 400r copy kit that I have seen and the genuine nismo item.
I'm sure you're right. Maybe it was a kit from one of these dodgy outfits who didn't prep their moulds correctly!!??


Look, we seem to be going around in circles here....

Despite what arguments we present here folks will still spend (subjectively) stupid amounts of money on bits for their cars and other folks will look to spend less. If you want to buy, for example, a genuine Nismo 400R kit for £10k then thats absolutely fine and dandy. It would also be perfectly fine if you bought a replica kit for £500. There's no right and wrong here.

There's room for everyone along with their own idea of what constitutes good value for money.. :thumbsup:


TT
 

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It seems to me you can't get past your prejudiced view that anyone who charges what *you* consider to be extortionate pricing is ripping people off just because you aren't prepared to pay for it. Well that is your choice, others choose to make a different choice and pay the money for the original parts, if they didn't then what would the likes of Japsalon have to copy from in the first place?

If they started designing and manufacturing things from scratch with all the R&D and failed attempts that goes into such an undertaking you can bet your house that their pricing would reflect that.

I do not care how good any copy is when all that supplier has done is rip off someone elses hard work and investment.

I have been in this position and bought a copy veilside bumper, it was rubbish in both fit and quality, I replaced the bumper with a genuine secondhand nismo item and it fit perfectly and the quality was top notch.

and there is right and wrong here, I am more than prepared to accept that recreating a part that is no longer made or sold by the manufacturer can be acceptable but while that part is freely available to buy directly from the manufacturer then buying a copy is exactly the same as buying dodgy DVD/CD from the market, or a fake rolex/gucci bag.
 

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It seems to me you can't get past your prejudiced view that anyone who charges what *you* consider to be extortionate pricing is ripping people off just because you aren't prepared to pay for it. Well that is your choice, others choose to make a different choice and pay the money for the original parts, if they didn't then what would the likes of Japsalon have to copy from in the first place?

If they started designing and manufacturing things from scratch with all the R&D and failed attempts that goes into such an undertaking you can bet your house that their pricing would reflect that.

I do not care how good any copy is when all that supplier has done is rip off someone elses hard work and investment.

I have been in this position and bought a copy veilside bumper, it was rubbish in both fit and quality, I replaced the bumper with a genuine secondhand nismo item and it fit perfectly and the quality was top notch.

and there is right and wrong here, I am more than prepared to accept that recreating a part that is no longer made or sold by the manufacturer can be acceptable but while that part is freely available to buy directly from the manufacturer then buying a copy is exactly the same as buying dodgy DVD/CD from the market, or a fake rolex/gucci bag.

Cool....

:squintdan:squintdan:squintdan


TT
 

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Thanks for conceding the point.
I don't recall conceding anything....Don't confuse withdrawing with a defeat!!

I'm just tired of your constant goalpost movingand astute enough to know there's nothing to be gained here.

I, like a few others I'm sure, know where the line is drawn with regards to value for money and will continue to buy what we feel is appropriate.


:sadwavey::sadwavey:


TT
 
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