[Jason abz]

Sorry is it just me or does anyone else feel really hard done by with the latest announcements of the various party leaders promises.
The lib dems with their tax reductions for everyone , as if!! Labour generally being labour and now the Tories harping on about family tax releif etc?
I am beginning to think that there is no hope for the single successful man/woman now. Why should my taxes subsidise your children going to school. Why should i be paying into the NHS when i have private medical care? Ok, i am not saying i didn`t use the NHS throughout my life to the point where i went private but it would be nice to be given the choice now as in NHS or private not the way it is now as in i pay for private health care but still have to pay for the NHS. If you have children then i suggest you pay for the education of them, not me!!!Now i know a lot will say that my attitude will change if i ever have a child, thats not my point, before i have a child i will make damned sure i can afford to give them the very best of everything, not just breed like rabbits and expect state handouts to cover my costs. I will happily pay for their education , when i have them but why should i be paying for other peoples children to be educated?
Gets my goat!
Rant over!

 

[Bajie]

One of my dads friends worked as a cleaner in the House of Commons [early 1970's].
He never really spoke about what went on, but said, judging by the behaviour of all the parties he would never vote for any of them.

 

[JasonO]

Jason,
Were you privately educated at the expense of your parents ?
Morally your argument is hugely selfish.

Should a child's right to a healthy upbringing depend upon the financial standing of it's parents ? It's not the childs fault that the parents can't afford private education or health care. Why should a child suffer for want of it's parents neglect (direct or indirect).

Our government, in the past, has seen fit to make amends for the short comings of society, and we have an NHS system which many other countries are very envious of. Sure, you could opt out of our NHS, I'm sure there'd be implications if you were refused (or offered a reduced level of) treatment for some ailment not covered by your private scheme.

It's also worth note, that in many cases, the facilities utilised for treatment of many illnesses are actually state owned, and leased on a time basis to the private sector. Many of the private treatments would cease to exist, without the current funding provided for the NHS service.

Genuine question - Does the private sector train and qualify it's own doctors and nurses ?

 

[JasonO]

On a politics note.....I never realised there were other parties beyond SNP.

 

[Nocturnal]

I think the system only works if you put in it and you get out of it.

Not considering the HUGE amount of resource wasted by the NHS, but the fact that there are people who put money in it, and don't get much out of it. And vice versa, people who come and take from it, and yet put nothing into it.

It is the 2 extreme that need to be taken away. If you put nothing in it, you should get nothing from it! Thats my thought.

The same goes for welfare, etc. If you do not work, have 16 kids, and expect the council to put you in a comfortable home, then it really is taking the pi$$. The catch 22 is that it isn't the kids fault for having crap parents that gave birth to them.

Education needs to be paid for. Otherwise the society as a whole will not function as the future are all going to be stupid.

Government try to regulate all these, but end of the days, it seems it is the working/middle class that are always hit the hardest. Because they can put money into the system, but does not qualify to take out. However, the amount of money they put in will be enough to affect their life where the richer population can put the capped amount and would not notice what-so-ever.

:flame:

 

[Jason abz]

ahhh, i expected that sort of reply jas. The fact is that i wasn`t privatetly educated or indeed have private health care however my parents were paying into the system throughout my childhood, for that i have no gripe. They also chose to start a family when they were financially in a position to do so and not like a lot of couples do now, who know full well that they will receive family credit to make up there household income shortfalls, from the government.
However they were simply paying for those benfits to me at the time , what exactly am i paying for being a non parent right now?
I would really encourage a tax system more like "pay as you go" and the fact that most of the political parties answer this with a simple dismissal that it would be more expensive for me without producing the facts and figures suggest that its a total lie. Sounds selfish bot usually its only those that are parents that argue that point. Have also heard the argument that i am paying for the doctors /scientists etc of tomorrow but sorry, i don`t buy it.
I don`t want children however i fancy that GT3 RS on the other thread, will the government give me tax credits or family credits to make up the shortfalls on my income after i start paying for it, no!

 

[Bajie]

I actually consider the NHS and the payments we make to it to be a bit like insurance schemes.
You pay it in the hope you will never have to use it. Bit like being a blood donor.
If something, anything happened to you and you needed the facilities, you would be really glad they were there.
Even Clarkson recently applauded the system which he admits to think was a bit shite before his hamster needed it. David Cameron due to relying on the NHS for his disabled child.

The NHS have had numerous re-organisations over the past years. The money we are paying into this system is being wasted on red tape rather than being put into the system.

 

[JasonO]

However they were simply paying for those benfits to me at the time , what exactly am i paying for being a non parent right now?

Have also heard the argument that i am paying for the doctors /scientists etc of tomorrow but sorry, i don`t buy it.

I don`t want children however i fancy that GT3 RS on the other thread, will the government give me tax credits or family credits to make up the shortfalls on my income after i start paying for it, no!

I reckon that GT3 RS on the other thread (not seen it yet) will cost less in it's lifetime than a child will cost you.

I'm not suggesting that you're paying for the doctors / scientists of the future with my question above. I do genuinely wonder if the private sector does train / educate it's own people.

What you are paying for right now, is the healthcare and other state benefits that your parents / grandparents can enjoy as UK citizens. This is where they get back what they put in, supposedly....we all know the system can't sustain this long term though that's a different discussion entirely.

BTW I'm not some toffy treehugging do gooder, I can actually sympathise with your point of view, but I'd rather see healthy kids in schools than disease ridden little oiks on the streets regardless of the inadequacy of their parentage.

 

[Jason abz]

yes you are a treehugger!!lol lol ;-)
I agree with your last sentiment but surely the parents of those children are responsible and ultimately should be footing the bill, not me!

 

[skykit]

I think for what we do pay into the system we can (if ever needed) draw on the resources we have paid for. I know most americans would love to have our systems as theres can potentially be very very expensive.

My best friends farther who terribly ill with to many things to go into (he lives in the usa) is in hospital and will remain there until he sadly passes away. He and his wife had almost $1,000,000 before he became ill a few years and 99% of that money has all gone. How fair is that? He paid his taxes and insurance premiums the same as everyone else and still gets screwed in his time of need leaving his spouse to have to work to live...and at an elderly age that is just not right. If they had lived here that would not have happened.

Yes money is being wasted on red tape etc but does that not go for all goverment bodies?? But it is still better than most of the world!

As for childrens education i think that without state funded schools (ok paid by us) then in not so many years from now decent society would not exist.

I think there are far bigger gripes that affect our pockets such as VAT (excessive amount) all the stealth taxes...taxes on fuel etc etc....we are being robbed every day except they dont wear a mask and just smile while we pay out.

 

[skykit]

yes you are a treehugger!!lol lol ;-)
I agree with your last sentiment but surely the parents of those children are responsible and ultimately should be footing the bill, not me!

Kind of see what your saying but.

The bigger drains on our society are not the children or the parents of the children that are wasters... (although they contribute)

Immigrants are draining BILLIONS! out of tax payers pockest

Every time this nob of a goverment decides to go to war they are draining billions out tax payers pockets

without these factors we as a nation would have billions of extra ££'to be better off with

Council tax is taking billions of us all....for what??? emptying our wheely bin once a fortnight?

I goverment/country has more money going into the goverments pockets than ever before but where does it all go?

Why do have goverments stealing money from our paid into state pension and then not being able to account for all the billions gone there...

Far bigger issues over where our money is going than those much smaller points imo

 

[Jason abz]

Yes, i totally agree skykit but as an example, these differ from region to region, 54% of my council tax does go on education / schools!!!! Why don`t they refund that money to those households with no children? Thats what does my head in. A measly 25% off because i live alone, i am out of the country for 167 days a year, no kids etc and all i get is 25% off. I live in a farmhouse in the middle of the countryside with no sawage, my own water etc etc, no street lights,i tarred my own road, god they have a nerve!lol
Immigration whilst a problem is nothing compaired to our own benefit fraud and to be honest, it has been said that if we could stamp out benefit fraud, income tax could be as low as 15%

 

[Sean]

I've watched the two recent conferences with interest (I even said hello to Hazel Blears in my local Tesco last week - I meant to say will you and your socialist brothers **** off out of Gov and never come back you poisonous Ginger Dwarf) what bothers me is this outbreak of 'concensus' politics over certain fundemental issues. Eg

Climate Change
The Iraq war (I'm dicounting the Liberals for obvious reasons)
The NHS
Social services

I happen to disagree with Jason over the NHS and with most people over the Iraq war but where is the choice at the ballot box? I do not want all three parties meeting behind closed doors, making grubby little deals and then tellings us its for our own good. However, given the nature of 'first past the post' politics we will be forced to accept certain compromises when choosing who to vote for (or not).

I think what frustrates most people is the lack of real difference between the controling bodies of both main parties.

I must disagree with Skykit about immigrants. They actually benefit the country by keeping wages under control and therefore helping to keep inflation down. The media likes to maintain the stereotype of immigrants as East European vagrants hiding under lorries, you are forgetting the numbers of trained and skilled immigrants (alot of whom work in the NHS) who pay tax and lots of it

 

[Jason abz]

In what way Sean? My point which probably isn`t very clear when i read my post over again is that i disagree with national insurance contributions being taken directly out of my wage packet, which fund the NHS unless i am being thick here, wuthout so much as the freedom of choice? i am not opposed to the NHS , what i am disgruntled with is the freedom of choice. If i choose to use the NHS then fine, i will pay for it with my national insurance contributions, if i choose to go private this money should be mine surely? The way i see it, i am double dipping into my wages for a health service , one way or another.

 

[stu0x]

I was privately educated, at my parents' cost, from the age of 8. This was a quality decision, nothing more - the state could not provide a similar quality of education. I was also supported by private healthcare, and have had an extremely limited impact on the NHS. Again, this was a quality choice.

Unfortunately the 'halfway house' that you suggest simply isn't viable Jason. You can't have an opt-out NHS, because the resources simply wouldn't be there for those that opt in. You either have an NHS, which everyone pays for, or you don't have widespread state-funded healthcare. Personally, I'd be more than happy with the latter solution. imo the entire welfare state in this country needs a serious overhaul. I'm sure my opinion would be different if I was a single mother living in a council property but... I'm not.

Skykit you appear to have limited/no understanding of how public funding works. Healthcare and Education (along with Law and Order) are two of the 'big three'. To suggest that they are areas of minor spending is nonsensical.

 

[Jason abz]

I long for the overhaul then Stu! ;-)
A system similar to pay as you go and i would be a very happy man indeed and the spongers would soon realise that as everything is no longer free , they would have to get up and work for a change!
I cannot stand people in this country who seem to think their very existance means they qualify for some sort of handout and the country is owe them a lifestyle.
Has anyone else ever had those frustrating days when its hot and sunny, you are stuck in an office and driving home you see people sat outside , beer in one hand, BBQ going in the corner and you know that they haven`t paid for any of it. I sometimes wonder who has the right idea. Whats the deal with having a bigger tele, bigger house and a nicer car, are they really any unhappier having next to nothing but sitting enjoying life on a summers day whilst the rest of us work our fingers to the bone?
(jeeepers, i really am on a winge today, must go for coffee!!lol)

 

[JasonO]

(jeeepers, i really am on a winge today, must go for coffee!!lol)

Tree Hugging > Moaning

 

[Sean]

In what way Sean? My point which probably isn`t very clear when i read my post over again is that i disagree with national insurance contributions being taken directly out of my wage packet, which fund the NHS unless i am being thick here, wuthout so much as the freedom of choice? i am not opposed to the NHS , what i am disgruntled with is the freedom of choice. If i choose to use the NHS then fine, i will pay for it with my national insurance contributions, if i choose to go private this money should be mine surely? The way i see it, i am double dipping into my wages for a health service , one way or another.

Stu made my point for me - You either have an NHS or you don't. Dispite the interfering politicians, the hopeless appointments system, the bloated bureaucracy the basic concept is still yet another reason to be proud of this country. If you look around at other countries who rely on private medicare is there system so much better?. We will ALL need medical help of some discription at some point in our lives which for me justifies the expense.
As a side issue, the NHS (or gov) has absolutely no right to deny me medical help on the grounds that I have chosen a particular lifestyle.

I believe 100% in the concept of small gov and freedom from state interference but the NHS is a worthy exception that should be applauded.

 

[Jason abz]

Fair comment Sean, don`t agree with any of it but fair it is!lol
I do question your faith in compairing our NHS to medical systems in other countries. I think the days of our NHS being the envy of the world are about two decades old Sean me old mucker. We can compare them to the third worls now i suppose and inflate our chests with pride....anywhere else and i think we look a laughing stock. I know of several cases but its a shame to bore you with stories and obviously you will have stories back to balance the subject , of people going abroad to get medical diagnosis to force the NHS to then act upon them as they were either in a years of waiting lists to be seen by specialists or the medical attention isn`t available unless you are diagnosed with something. Hardly something to be proud of.

 

[Sean]

Fair comment Sean, don`t agree with any of it but fair it is!lol
I do question your faith in compairing our NHS to medical systems in other countries. I think the days of our NHS being the envy of the world are about two decades old Sean me old mucker. We can compare them to the third worls now i suppose and inflate our chests with pride....anywhere else and i think we look a laughing stock. I know of several cases but its a shame to bore you with stories and obviously you will have stories back to balance the subject , of people going abroad to get medical diagnosis to force the NHS to then act upon them as they were either in a years of waiting lists to be seen by specialists or the medical attention isn`t available unless you are diagnosed with something. Hardly something to be proud of.

I've looked into private health care myself (decided to run a Skyline instead:nervous: ) I do feal proud of the concept and that it does make a difference. Its bad enough that the streets are cluttered with poor people, could you imagine the streets cluttered with ILL poor people - Oh God the germs! I take on board what you are saying about patients being farmed out to other countries etc - and speaking from recent personal experience the patient choice idea of using private hospitals to cut waiting lists is a utterly useless, expensive and badly set up :chairshot

In short I detest the fact that the NHS has been used as a political football almost since its inception (Cameron made me cringe this week the vacant idiot). Its always going to be expensive, probably grossly inefficient but leave it alone to do its job of making sick people better.