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Discussion Starter #1
On the day we read that more of our money is going to be put into the Road network I sat listening to BBC R4 and I heard the same old 'tat' being proffered to the masses, to whit;
'If you just build more roads, then more people just use them and it would never end'
This was trotted out with the phrase, 'We all now accept this as true'
errrr, no, I don't... nor does anyone with any commonsense either.
Where has this idea come from?
Anyone know?
Mobility = Personal Wealth
If you can easily get to that job 100miles away every day and it is paying twice as much as the job down the road, then you are on to a winner, confine people to just a 20 mile radius and although we live in the 4th wealthiest Country on the planet the masses don't benefit, you have no option but to sell your labour locally, that is why the average Frenchmens standard of living is better than the Average Englishmans, our french counter-part has mobility, in France the roads are well built, well maintained and not as congested, there is sufficient 'road' for the purpose as we build more of course the roads will be crowded, this is not unconstructive congestion it is Wealth creation on the move, we need to make things move faster so that you need only be on the road for a short time to get to the wealth, not sitting in a queue waiting to create it.

(Sat in a 25 minute queue today whilst listening to the 'Radi -idiot')

Q. There is a well known 'Mouth on Legs' on TV on a Sunday, he professes to be a car nut, yet he sees fit to waste a good opprtunity to utterly remove this 'accepted fact' from the national psyche, but instead he complains about a couple of ineffectual 'Bus Lanes'.
My Q?
Why?
 

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Hmmm

Isn't your proposition governed by supply and demand and definition of wealth? ie, there is an enormous demand for road use in the UK versus limited land on which to build new roads. France has a much lower demand for road use versus supply of land available for roads, hence the ability/option to travel longer distances to work. Taking your argument to its logical conclusion would mean converting the whole country to roads - which begs the question, where would you locate the "office" to which you would travel to, to increase your "wealth"?

Also, some people would define wealth as no petrol fumes and no cars for miles around.

Not that I am against building new roads, but there are finite benefits of doing so.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Fred said:
Hmmm
Isn't your proposition governed by supply and demand and definition of wealth? ie, there is an enormous demand for road use in the UK versus limited land on which to build new roads.
No, my proposition is that wealth is frittered away in traffic jams that are simply not wanted or needed.



Fred said:

France has a much lower demand for road use versus supply of land available for roads, hence the ability/option to travel longer distances to work. Taking your argument to its logical conclusion would mean converting the whole country to roads - which begs the question, where would you locate the "office" to which you would travel to, to increase your "wealth"?
France has a peceived lower demand due to the better network.
Taking my arguement and blowing it to ridiculous levels you're right, there would be no office space, but then again the point is ridiculous, take any arguement to a falacious extreme and it becomes a joke, the same could be said of offices and of farming.



Fred said:

Also, some people would define wealth as no petrol fumes and no cars for miles around.
Yeah, and the vast majority would define wealth as good money for the least effort and aggro. I believe if you wanna be a tree-hugging hippy wierdo, live in Wales, Pennines or Scotland, not where people want to work, even in the South-east 80% of the land is 'green', hand over 10% and the entire area would benefit hand over 20% and the place would be better than ever



Fred said:

Not that I am against building new roads, but there are finite benefits of doing so.
What are these finite benefits? To me the reason the roads fill up is because there is such a back up of demand, that doesn't mean that that will always be the case, every new road lessens that overburden, then at some point the overburden isn't there, the roads built can cope and the demand levels off, the World is a better place.

final thought;
France has roughly the same population as us they have slightly more cars than us, they have just 11% more arterial road per square mile/population density, so we add just 11% to our road intensity in the built up area and bang the traffic flows again as it does in France.

But hey, what do I know, we obviously have the smartest people in Parliament don't we?, and our Civil Serveants are just fantastic.
 

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Mycroft and gang,

I feel that not only do we need to address the city centre episodes and the main arterial roadways but we need to address the mentality of the mental behind the wheel of his vectra (replace with car of your choice).

The whole traffic system seems to be braking down as a result of basic breakdown of the highway code.

Example. You are travelling clockwise on the M25, there are four lanes of motorway it is a clear day with the variable speed limit off. in the inside lane there is an 18 wheel lorry, 2 small cars, the next lane has one person going .5 mph faster than them the same goes for the single car on your left.

in the outside lane that you have so valiantly fought to get into there are cars out of sight in both directions. It is as if you are driving in Germany or somewhere on the wrong side of the road.

a car 5 miles ahead is a bit close to the one in front and just touches his brakes, this causes the cars immedietly behind to touch their brakes and readjust the comfortable 1 second braking gap they are delluded into thinking is enough for their disks all round ghia model.

about half a mile behind this touching of brakes there is someone half asleep who sees the brakes a bit late and stamps on his also ducking into the empty lane next to him. And so on until it gets to you and this causes a massive group stoppage everyone has slowed from their 80 mph coma down to 2 mph then everyone just speeds off again. half a mile behind you there is a nasty pile up involving 5 cars and taking out the two outside lanes.

Meanwhile you have had enough of sitting in this outside lane, where the "sudden stop " so familiar from old ladies in tesco has found its way onto our roads, you indicate to pull into the third lane but everyone else has had the same idea and they are all going faster than you so you cant get out of the "fast" (overtaking) lane because it is now the slowest lane on the motorway.

In My car I tend to sit in the second lane of the motorway and undertake all of the poor idiots doing reaction tests in the 4th lane of this point of the motorway. This is in my opinion a breakdown in the highway code. people will not get out of the "fast" outside lane on the motorway because they seem to think that they will never get back into it.

If people actually drove on the left side of the carriage way then the faster cars could pass and the slower ones could stay on the inside and hey presto we have no more high speed pile ups caused by a phantom running in front of a car 5 miles in front.
Ok maybe not comletely eliminating accidents it would reduce them.

The person 5 miles up the road has caused a potentially fatal crash by adjusting his distance from the car in front.

The amount of people I get driving on my bumper at 80 mph on a motorway is scary. the other day I had a Ford Galaxy sitting about 5 feet from my bumper. So here I am with a car that has ok Brakes sitting so close to me that if I backed off the throttle it would hit me. My car has (reprtedly) some of the best stopping distances of any production car and as a younger person I have probably got better reflexes than the grandad driving the tank behind me. I can't get out of the way of this muppet because I am trapped in the fast lane with even the slow lane going faster than me being undertaken by everything, and the cars in front are not getting out of the way.

Imagine this sort of standard of driving on an auto bahn in Germany !! it would be like Darwinism in practice, survival of the fittest.

I believe that the road infrastructure is not too bad it is the F"£$%^^& idiots who insist on tailgating and generally being ignorant of everyone around them who are the down fall of this countries road network. Obviously the rigged lights and bus lanes in City centres are the problems there but I have sat in traffic on the M1 in the past doing nothing for 4 hours. this is the main arteial motorway for England !!

I'll get me coat.
Rant over.
Steve
 

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"Imagine this sort of standard of driving on an auto bahn in Germany"

You obviously haven't driven on a very busy autobahn then.
Even worse than UK - when a truck overtakes another truck the queue rapidly forms. Soon everyone is nose to tail at 60mph and in no time at all the ass in the merc at the back of the queue decides its time not to queue any more - straight to the front and push in – concertina braking here we go.
Same thing often happens at speeds in excess of 100mph. I have driven all over Europe and I find the autobahns the scariest of all european roads – don’t get me wrong – I love fast driving and the lack of speed limit is great – but the driving standards are appalling. When it gets busy there is always an accident – especially if it’s wet. Stau time.

Modern cars are just too good at masking the dangers of speed and distance. Everyone is just too darn comfy in their air conditioned, air-bag protected, ABS stopped, sound proofed mobile armchairs. No one has any comprehension of safe stopping distances.

My vote is for the abolition of seat belts and the introduction of steering wheel spikes instead of airbags – people would soon learn to leave a safe distance.
The safer we make things appear the more people can’t read the true danger.
 

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Tree hugging!!!!

Errmm...... i`m sure you didn`t exactly mean what you said about treehugging weirdos living in Scotland whilst suggesting anyone that wants to work should leave these locations????
Should maybe take a good look at the percentage of revenue created against head of population in these countries you want to deport all these weirdos too!!! Oil and Gas to name but one!!!
Do agree with your original point that many roads in the UK are beyond beleif and i actaully live in the oil capital of Europe, in the year 2002 (nearly 3) and we still dont have a ring road!!
Jas
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The point with the 'tree-huggers' is this, you like the country-side so much, then go!

Take up your lentils and leave, live out in the Wilds with nature on your doorstep and stop trying to make an urban working environment a little piece of 'Dorset', it ain't and it never can be.

Simple idea, if you live in the South-east then accept 20% more urban and motor use, no Public Enquiries just get on with it.

In the end we'd all live better lives, the majority are being 'held to ransom' by a minoriity that try lay all the troubles of the World at the foot of the car driver.

Motto for X-mas;

Know a tree-hugger that hates cars?
Edited:smokin:
 

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"The whole traffic system seems to be braking down as a result of basic breakdown of the highway code."

I wholeheartedly agree!

I had a vivid experience of this when returning from a week in france with the FTO - seldom stuck in any form of traffic no matter where or when I was driving (except rush hour on the paris orbital - but even that was moving). I get off the tunnel and start bombing it back up the motorway and within 10 minutes I'm undertaking people because they're sat in the overtaking lane doing 70 without another car in sight. The french accomplish in 2 lanes what we can't in 4.

It amazes me that motorway experience isn't compulsory - driving on a three lane motorway at 70mph (when you can) is a bit different to 30mph round town - while it requires the same basic skills you need to be thinking much further ahead.

The thing that irks me most is that people seem to think a driving license is a right rather than a priviledge - if you're a crap driver you shouldn't be given a license to kill (because that's what it is). If you want to reduce the number of deaths on the road, reduce the number of people with licenses, not the speed limit.

rant over and flameproof suit on :)
 

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It's all gone to sh1t in UK since they started targetting speeding so much.

The attitude is now.....

"It's socially unacceptable to drive at over 70mph on the motorway so I' m going to sit here in the 'fast lane' and stop all you irresponsible bu99ers in fast cars overtaking."

whereas it used to be

"Oh sh1t, oh sh1t, those lights are approaching dreadfully fast from behind I think I better just move over and let that highly tuned japanese sex-mobile past"

Time for some variable speed limits including unrestricted on non urban motorways between 1am and 6am. The faster I finish my journey the less time I am on the road. Halve the traffic overnight - double the speed limit!
 

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speed limit.....dont talk to me bout that!!! just wish it was higher...

I also wish that every day was a school holiday, because when school is out, the roads are fantastic...I can get to work in 15mins rather than my usual 45mins.....

Mycroft, move out of Newbury and into the town where you work, you wouldnt have to commute then would you.....;)
 

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I suppose there isn't much you can do when on the road - but if you get an **** ranting about how it is his god given right to shat around at 70 on the third lane then simply jog their memories of the Highway Code. First lane is for? Second lane is for? and third lane is for?

By analogy sitting in the third when NOT overtaking is in fact contravention of the Highway code full stop even if you are obeying the law in terms of speed the purposes of lanes 2 and 3 (or overtaking lanes as they are called in the common tongue) are to assist in an overtaking move with the view of returning to the first to continue on your journey!
 

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Oh and while I am still ranting.

How does more roads = more cars? Surely people do not look at the roads and think hmmm there is too much space on the road therefore I must buy a vehicle regardless of the extreme costs of running one. Most people do so because they can afford to do so, love cars and will always find a way to get a car or have to buy one because public transport is rubbish to say the least. An effective (reliable, clean and cheap) public transport would in my submission be the greatest means of reducing traffic. Therefore the demand for roads my at least stabilise of not diminish. Especially when you consider the high costs of running a vehicle these days, yet people are still prepared to use cars.
 

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For all those that have trouble with outside lane hoggers there is a simple solution.

[flame suit on]
Buy an Evo. Nothing shifts traffice from the outside lane quite like it. I had the pleasure of driving a Ferrari 355 for a weekend a few months ago with my wife following me in our Evo. Every single time I came across an outside lane hogger they wouldn't move over. Simple solution was for me to pull into the middle lane and let the wife move up behind them. Within seconds the car pulls over and we continue..... Bizarre....
[/flame suit off]

Have to agree with what people are saying about roads vs cars as well. Just because there are more roads being built doesn't mean you are going to drive your car more!!! Provided that the population level stays relatively stable then the amount of cars on the road will remain stable(ish). Therefore if you increase the amount of road to drive on the traffic density goes down and you get less congestion.

Or am I missing some vital point and making this all too simple?

Andy
 

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Mycroft

one of your earlier posts on this thread :-

... traffic jams that are simply not wanted or needed
I disagree. I've observer over my life that the british public, in general, love to queue. Queue to get into pubs, queue to get into clubs, queue at the post office, wait an hour for food in a restaurant, the list goes on.

the thing that really amuses me, every day a go along a stretch of road which is 2 laned, and ends in a roundabout. the road markings say that the left lane is for left turn and staight on, and the right hand lane is for straight on and right hand turns.

every morning, the left lane has a queue 1/3 mile long, whilst the right lane is empty. and at least 90% of the traffic goes straight on.

Why do these cars sit and wait? there's an empty lane that is ok for them to use, right next to them!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Another factor in all this is that the average British Driver is crap at overtaking, he is scared to just in case he is snared by a cop with a speed gun or un-known camera, go abroad and even the old biddies in Renault Scenic diesels are more adept and alert to an overtaking opportunity, we are too sh-it-scared to be as decisive, fear of speed cameras does cause snarl ups miles from their location.
 

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overtaking classics (Rant!)

Problems:
Pull into lane 3 and overtake the the 70mph car in lane 2 at 71mph! take as long as you like mate i'm only braking from 90mph. shame you have no idea of time and distance

Idiots joining dual carriage ways and motorways at slow speeds and/or be indecisive and having no idea how to mesh with the traffic

Damn speed cameras. i can remember when you could do an honest ton and so did a lot of other people. now its just tw?ts with no idea

Solutions:
no-one over 70 should be allowed to drive.

increase the speed limit so cars can use the roads for less time because they got there quicker:smokin:
 

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You got it 100% with the dangerous slip road thing. I hate it being stuck behind some tit doing 30mph down the slip road onto a busy M1. It's downright dangerous trying to join the traffic at half the speed the traffic is doing.

I'm sure that causes accidents... Where are the Truvelo cams set to flash when you're going below 60 ?
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
I dislike the BBC as much as the Dept. of Trans.:D

I thought a 'common enemy' might bring us all together for a kinda group hug sort of thing, it being Christmas n'all:smokin:

Before I go to that Big Hotel in the Canadian Rockies with my Wife and Child....redrum...redrum...redrum
 

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Have just typed a huge load of verbal trash around this whole subject and have distilled it down to this:

"Truck drivers should not be allowed to overtake each other and be incitivised (road tax,fuel) to travel at night."
 
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