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Should Britain leave the EU?

  • Yes

    Votes: 148 69.5%
  • No

    Votes: 51 23.9%
  • Not voting

    Votes: 14 6.6%

  • Total voters
    213
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I think staying in the EU is the easy option. It's like staying addicted to drugs. You know it's bad for you but it's easy to have more rather than face the problem and quit. That's how I look at the EU, it's a very bad drug which is good for no one and is destroying everything but you just cant see it because your blinded by the high but just like quitting drugs we have to want to do it ourselves. It's a journey only one can complete on their own. This is why Britain has to go on its own to heal from all the false highs and lows and come back sober and stronger than before which is what the bad drug in this case the EU is afraid of.
 

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Mook, I don't think we'd be worse off in a norwegian style system.

From what I heard yesterday, the contributions equate to less than the current amount we pay in. The regulations predominantly relate to trade and those are only applied to products traded with Europe, which ours already do. The remainder of our trade would not be bound by EU regulations. We'd also be free to arrange our own trade deals with the rest of the world which we cannot currently do and which would enable us to capitalise better on that much bigger and growing market, as opposed to the smaller contracting EU market (that sells more to us than buys from us!).

I also don't think (not sure) we'd be exposed to the cost of eurozone bailouts.

The price for this, to be on the same terms as Norway would be free movement of people - which I don't mind especially (prefer the net zero limitaton if we need it but it's wishful thinking) and not having a seat at the table.

Let's remind ourselves of the 70 occasions when we have disagreed with the majority and the 70 times we were defeated - that seat at the table is not especially useful really.

Norway model would suit me, but given the size of our economy and the value of our trade to Europe, I do believe we have the power to get a norway + deal.
 

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Adam,

Hannan sums it up nicely as always in his excellent manner in this interview;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCghi2rVaWY

He talks of free movement of labour, not full EU citizenship with all acquired rights such as right to live, vote and claim welfare/education benefits.

I think that's a good solution, maintain healthcare in that though I'd suggest as that's a two way street and freedom of movement through borders is a good thing, especially if free trade is to continue. I'm not so sure I agree on paying in for the benefit of free trade. The business benefits would be mutual and the free movement of people would be the price to pay for leaving the EU, rather than a Norway deal we should aim for our own UK deal, if poss!! Obviously the goods we sell would need to meet EU standards/ requirements.
 

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Talking of Norway, we went a couple of years ago on a cruise with a port of call at a town in Norway on a Sunday. 2000 people with money to spend arrived at a small town and were all the shops open, ready to take all that money ? No, they were not. The place was shut because it was a Sunday. If that was the UK, or other parts of Europe then people would have been out in force with the sole aim of extracting all that money from people.

I remember at the time thinking what a pleasant change their attitude was.

If that's what Norway is like then it looked good to me.
 

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Adam,

Hannan sums it up nicely as always in his excellent manner in this interview;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCghi2rVaWY

He talks of free movement of labour, not full EU citizenship with all acquired rights such as right to live, vote and claim welfare/education benefits.

I think that's a good solution, maintain healthcare in that though I'd suggest as that's a two way street and freedom of movement through borders is a good thing, especially if free trade is to continue. I'm not so sure I agree on paying in for the benefit of free trade. The business benefits would be mutual and the free movement of people would be the price to pay for leaving the EU, rather than a Norway deal we should aim for our own UK deal, if poss!! Obviously the goods we sell would need to meet EU standards/ requirements.
It's a good point. The payment for access to the market should be free movement - not a fee in addition. Especially as there is a massive net gain for them. We should ask for payment in proportion to trade and when they don't like the idea of paying us, settle on it being zero.

I keep banging on about this but even the £350m is pennies compared to how much we benefit from trading with them, never mind that as a proportion of our costs barely even registers.
 

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My Reasons..

nothing to do with immigration, being poor, David Cameron, current government etc etc..

I don't want to be "ruled" over by a dictatorship (modern day version of the Nazi party IMO) made up of failed politicians and jobsworths on the gravy train.. squandering my hard earned money on bushtit schemes... financing their fancy lives and the corruption. They have been "skimming and wasting hundreds of millions for years -

Also,
the thought of being in a dictatorship, where you cannot vote anyone out, or have a debate, or a say who is in charge, etc etc.. is an extraordinarily scary prospect> History proves time and again - It is a blueprint for disaster..

AND,
the EU is in crisis and does not work.. most of the freeloaders (looking at you in med countries) are broke and have been fiddling their books for decades...

AND
The EU commission to the UK, is as what FIFA is to Football. I.,e totally corrupt with lots of rats filling their pockets.. currently or for when they get kicked out of government in their own countries (regardless of which party they were in)

AND
its a great big retirement club for failed politicians and freeloaders with very brown noses...
who the HELL wants to be ruled over by that complete Muppet - neil kinnock..????
who the hell decided to pay that moron to freeload off our taxes, living a life of luxury attempting to tell us what to do... its gob smacking !!!

the EU promotes massive incompetence, waste vast sums of our money, has no accountability - and for some unknown to me reason - some people think that's ok.
Face Palm !

no doubt they have done some good over the years,, but it does not excuse the "lost billions over the decades" and trying to form a nation state and dictatorship with UNELECTED gimps...

Rant over

For the record...
I am not a racist - I married an immigrant. but we do need to massively tighten up our immigration control... point system like in Aus would be an easy start
also,
I LOVE Germany. I go there at least once a year on holiday. its not them or their people -Its these eurorats that got themselves into this "club"
 

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I agree with everything nicktt said, simply not having to send MEPs to Brussels is a saving. And okay, they give us some money back but they decide how to spend nearly all of it, which lacks flexibility and the fishing subsidy is really not money back at all, it's a fee for fishing in our waters.:mad:

I appreciate that the EU Commission is elected by the elected but that creates a disconnect in accountability. I'm happy for my candidate to pick subordinates, but not superiors.

Greece has been bankrupt since 2008, and is now just being zombie-walked with the occasional feeding of brain matter from EU taxpayers.

Furthermore Juncker is a drunk - there's even a video on YT.

Although I don't think the Norwegian system is a good idea. That leaves us paying more for a part of the same problem.

I'm not anti-immigrant. If someone has a skill we can't source internally we'll take them. If someone can make more income than the national average, not too bothered about them either. And as for the idiots being racist lately.:chairshot But there's no way I want to continue subsidising an annual zerg rush of low income financial liabilities on a cumulative basis, and the word 'cumulative' is important. Far better in the long run to pay a bit more (fixed cost) for free trade and regain control over an accumulative cost.
 

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Thanks Mook I'm back!

David Cameron is losing more respect daily. Why does he tell the EU that the reason we voted out is because of migration. Has he actually conducted and study to see why people opted out? Just because the media and campaigns hijacked the migration issue does not mean that that is the reason for out. I'd suspect it's far more to do with sovereignty as a percentage basis and an uncomfortability with the future direction and current mindset of the EU.

Working in a factory - everyone i have spoke to says they voted out due to immigration - and to be honest it was everyone so i do think Mr C has a point - i did not vote myself as i was concerned about the financial impact of the out vote
 

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Can't pretend immigration wasn't a factor for a lot of people, it was. Perhaps we should not get Norway or 'Norway +', maybe we should go for 'Canada +', they didn't have to accept free movement for trade. I think politically it's a very difficult thing to sell any free movement to the majority of people who voted out.

I'm not a fan of Corbyn, but he was right on Friday morning when he said the vote was the result of ignoring the impact of immigration on the working man/community. You have to address this not ignore it or just shout 'racist' everytime it is brought up. Let's face it, the middle class do not feel it as much as the group who are on entry level wages. Ask yourselves why communities where immigration is high, such as Boston and Fenland (farming communities) voted out. It wasn't because of high ideals, it was because their perception is they are out-competed for jobs and services. Ignoring that has led to this vote. The 'Remain' argument was too high level and did not address these day to day perceived impacts. All IMHO.:runaway:
 

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Can't pretend immigration wasn't a factor for a lot of people, it was. Perhaps we should not get Norway or 'Norway +', maybe we should go for 'Canada +', they didn't have to accept free movement for trade. I think politically it's a very difficult thing to sell any free movement to the majority of people who voted out.

I'm not a fan of Corbyn, but he was right on Friday morning when he said the vote was the result of ignoring the impact of immigration on the working man/community. You have to address this not ignore it or just shout 'racist' everytime it is brought up. Let's face it, the middle class do not feel it as much as the group who are on entry level wages. Ask yourselves why communities where immigration is high, such as Boston and Fenland (farming communities) voted out. It wasn't because of high ideals, it was because their perception is they are out-competed for jobs and services. Ignoring that has led to this vote. The 'Remain' argument was too high level and did not address these day to day perceived impacts. All IMHO.:runaway:
You can add to that increased NHS waiting times and oversubscribed schools. They were definite vote makers.

Another thing to shout about. How come it isn't against EU protocol for Scotland and Gibraltar to hold unofficial talks before article 50, but it is for UK? Another question I must credit Corbyn with (even though I hate his guts).

I also wonder if it would actually be possible to make UK employers pay an additional tax and national insurance contribution for extremely low income EU workers, to bring their contributions up to the national average, whilst allowing free movement? I guess that would class as a tariff on Labour though. Right now we're subsidising a vast empire of low income employers who are screwing the taxpayer with the knock-on cost of their employment choices.
 

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Working in a factory - everyone i have spoke to says they voted out due to immigration - and to be honest it was everyone so i do think Mr C has a point - i did not vote myself as i was concerned about the financial impact of the out vote
Hi Terry,

I can understand that, I've worked 2 years of my life in factories, one year in England and one year in Italy, it's an honest job and there's something very fulfilling in doing an honest days work and seeing the results of it taking shape, I can honestly say it was a happier time for me work wise!

In that environment, and I'm in construction now which is not far removed, one of the most immediate risks/threat to their livelihood is from the influx of cheaper labour, prepared to do more for less and keen to work as many more hours as possible and not necessarily in the same workplace as alternative companies spring up employing largely foreign labour. However that is a very narrow demographic sample as you'd appreciate and opinions can be contagious so I still disagree with Cameron's sweeping statement but it's interesting to me nonetheless to hear that, so thank you for sharing that, the more feedback the better we can understand the needs of the populace. Problem with the OUT decision is that it embodies so many facets of the same choice.

The issue of control of migration is about getting the right migration, the cheap labour end of the scale is pointless (aside from those who would profit from exploitation) if we have our own workforce and youngsters, (who, if put through apprenticeships instead of shoved through further education to keep employment figures looking rosey while amassing student debts) could fill that role. Cheap labour is a drain on the economy as the taxes they would be paying on minimum wage versus the cost of schooling and looking after their families is not proportionate and undermines the living standards, infrastructure and future of British workers. In the factories I worked at, there were upto 3 generations that had worked and indeed a couple of generations concurrently working in them.

It's a shame then that the media and leavers hijack at every opportunity the view that anyone that has an issue with immigration is a racist without appreciating the legitimate concerns. Likewise, Cameron in telling the EU that he lost the referendum because of their view on immigration, is to me a misleading statement because it implies that is the only reason that people have objected to the EU when we know there is far more to it and far more wrong with it. Imho, because he has failed to deliver on his manifesto pledge, this is his scapegoat, he can now blame the EU for the fact that he couldn't control migration and fulfill his pledge and it also cost him the referendum!

Cheers
Nito
 

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Cameron in telling the EU that he lost the referendum because of their view on immigration, is to me a misleading statement because it implies that is the only reason that people have objected to the EU when we know there is far more to it and far more wrong with it. Imho, because he has failed to deliver on his manifesto pledge, this is his scapegoat, he can now blame the EU for the fact that he couldn't control migration and fulfill his pledge and it also cost him the referendum!

Cheers
Nito
He's lost much more than the referendum, he's lost his job, he's also lost his legacy.

He was the Prime Minister who was in charge during the successful Scottish referendum, the great London Olympics, the strongest recovery from the worst recession in living memory.

Now he allowed the referendum in fear of losing a general election, he lost it, and he will be responsible for the UK economy possibly returning to recession (don't think it will happen) leaving Europe and probably losing Scotland.
 

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Well the Spanish and French have told the Scottish to get knotted.

Brexit: Spain and France oppose Scotland EU talks - BBC News

Speaking ahead of his meeting with Ms Sturgeon, Mr Juncker said: "Scotland won the right to be heard in Brussels so I will listen carefully to what the first minister will tell me.

"But we don't have the intention, neither Donald Tusk nor myself, to interfere in an inner British process that is not our duty and this is not our job."
EU - computer says no!
 

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With oil where it is, and Scotland having to join the Euro if it leaves the UK anyway, and the fact that it is heavily subsidised by London. I'm inclined to say "see ya" if they think they'll be better off.
 

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Still don't fundamentally understand why rule from Brussels is better for Scotland than from Westminster. It seems such a paradox when independence is the reason touted.
 
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