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Should Britain leave the EU?

  • Yes

    Votes: 148 69.5%
  • No

    Votes: 51 23.9%
  • Not voting

    Votes: 14 6.6%

  • Total voters
    213
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just to remind people the types of deals that the EU has been willing to offer the UK;

Here's what the EU agreed to in Cameron's deal: "It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom."

again that sounds to me like a decent reassurance on one of the major concerns.
So we are an outsider within a secret circle? Whilst it "sounds" great that we have exemption, what it actually means is our opinion and vote carries less weight.
 

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nice was shot down when france and netherlands voted against it and evolved into lisbon (over 6 years). lisbon (14 years after Maastricht) was then revised when Ireland voted against it. all sounds very democratic. in fact lisbon instituted bicameral legislature and additional roles for national governments. sounds like a move in the right direction?
All sounds very democratic - indeed perhaps it does/is - depending on the QMV rules if you think that it will mean votes exclusively in UK's best interest. (It naturally isn't - but you could say that's not a bad thing).
I think our direction should be decided by UK electorate solely and not hived up to a mob who don't have UK interests as paramount.

My point was/is that you rely on us having an enduring "veto" meaning that things won't progress toward the avowed intent of the EU - and our "veto's" are under assault continually. Do you really believe they will be retained indefinitely? honestly?

Fortunately the latest power grab on tax (which was started immediately after those Lisbon ones came into play in 2017 looks like it has been stalled somewhat...

fyi - since it's clearly only leavers who are uninformed (sorry, cheap shot, couldn't resist ;)

Oct2017
https://euobserver.com/institutional/139630

Jan 2019
Arbitrary report on current status - google easily for more data.
https://www.austriancenter.com/unanimity-on-tax-eu/
 

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just to remind people the types of deals that the EU has been willing to offer the UK;

Here's what the EU agreed to in Cameron's deal: "It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom."

again that sounds to me like a decent reassurance on one of the major concerns.

..And you believe it - lol - are you sure?
Have you read of the 5 presidents reports and daily rantings regarding full political /monetary union being the only way forward for the EU. I have and many other aspects. It fine that this is what they want - I personally don't think it's good for the UK.

Do you doubt or deny their avowed intent toward this btw?
You know all their literature, speeches, actions show one thing and this snippet to Cameron is proof they don't mean it - lol.

I'm not trying to be asmart arse or rude to you btw I just see it for what it is and what I've researched (outside of press propaganda either way)... and have my view formed accordingly.

I'm not trying to change your mind - just let you know why I have my opinion - and that is they are hell bent on a Federal Europe.
 

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that's also a great argument for not leaving the eu at all.
Well it's not though, because whilst we have a "vote" the agenda isn't one that is designed to benefit us. Better to be on the outside having all the benefits that brings globally rather than being locked into a group that doesn't consider us a 'fully committed" member
 

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Our vote would be meaningless as it is by majority nowadays, so all they need to do is marginalise the UK and they could pretty much carry anything. Don't think it would happen? Don't bet on it!!
 

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Our vote would be meaningless as it is by majority nowadays, so all they need to do is marginalise the UK and they could pretty much carry anything. Don't think it would happen? Don't bet on it!!
My point exactly


Given the recent parliamentary shenanigans I'm depressed enough about the b'stards assault on the referendum result - given the mandates they stood for and were voted in on - anyway
At least (up to now to a certain extent) our government is sensitive to our votes pretty much directly and if it doesn't operate in the UK interest (mostly) then we can shove it to them at the ballot box. Let's be honest, fear of losing even more to UKIP after 2015 was the only reason we got a referendum in the first place.
The EU with QMV will not be influenced even a little bit by anything that the UK electorate/populace vote - pretending or hoping otherwise is niaive.
They will follow the German/French and influenceable countries to get through what those biguns want through QMV anyway.
 

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My point exactly

The EU with QMV will not be influenced even a little bit by anything that the UK electorate/populace vote - pretending or hoping otherwise is niaive.
They will follow the German/French and influenceable countries to get through what those biguns want through QMV anyway.
Absolutely that. Simple majority and Qualified Majority we're outnumbered every time. Direct veto is on so few decisions and is the only one we have a 'say' and only if the nodding dogs decide to use it.

Anyone who has bothered to read the Lisbon treaty can see exactly where things are headed, it absolutely and categorically lays down all the foundations for a United States of Europe and sets up all the conditions for a direct transfer of power away from sovereign states and to Brussels which would become merely a formality that is but a treaty away.

Our Parliament is and always has been Sovereign. They can do whatever they like. We never had a written constitution because we never needed one, our democracy was direct and we would have our say at each election to influence government direction. With no prior precedent, idiot Major signed us up to Maastricht, the first transfer of sovereignty which came after Thatchers ousting.

This should absolutely have gone to a referendum then, because although Parliament is Sovereign, it was never contemplated that our Government would cede supremacy to others or indeed any previous precedent in place, therefore there was no constitutional mechanism in place to block it.

The Irish had a referendum on Lisbon. Once again we did not. Brown cleverly sent Milliband over to sign us up to that one but the effect was the same. This should have gone to the people, most of the effects of Lisbon don't come into being until 2022 so many are oblivious to what it could entail.

Now the people have had the opportunity to have their say on Europe, better late than never and they have voted.

People should take the opportunity to read the Lisbon treaty and what the future will look like under it, I said way back in this thread that a vote to remain was not to preserve the status quo, it is further integration. That is the European dream, Lisbon treaty absolutely captures the intentions of the intended future of Europe. Through all the nonsense, the truth is out there to be seen if one is prepared to dig deep enough and read between the lines and the primary evidence, not what the media manipulate.

Thankfully, our European Union Act 2011, did put a check in place that any further transfer of powers required a referendum.

"The European Union Act 2011 reaffirmed that sovereignty lay with the British Parliament, with section 18 stating: "Directly applicable or directly effective EU law (that is, the rights, powers, liabilities, obligations, restrictions, remedies and procedures referred to in section 2(1) of the European Communities Act 1972) falls to be recognized and available in law in the United Kingdom only by virtue of that Act or where it is required to be recognised and available in law by virtue of any other Act."[29] The Act also requires that a referendum be held when more powers are transferred to the European Union (though this can be repealed with another Act of Parliament). Alternatively, as prescribed by the 2016 Brexit referendum, an Act to withdraw from the European Union could be passed in parallel with the withdrawal procedure laid down in Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, whereby a Member State would notify the European Council of its intention to secede from the Union and a withdrawal agreement would be negotiated between the Union and the State. The Treaties would cease to be applicable to that State from the date of the agreement or, failing that, within two years of the notification."

However, combine an affirmation for a further transfer of powers, ie chosing to Remain, with a further treaty that cements that, it is quite conceivable that we grant powers away that are no longer able to be repatriated. For me that is a totally unacceptable position, and one which the EU continues to push forward towards in the name of 'unity' 'integration' and the 'European dream'.

Unfortunately for me as a Leaver, our Sovereign Government took it upon themselves to take no deal off the table. They will fall horribly and deservedly on their swords in the European elections now, no doubt Brexit party will clean up and unless they oust May now and change direction dramatically the Tories will be finished at the next election, the rest of Parliament are not much better.

This will no doubt mean that a 'draining the swamp' type mindset will be in the minds of people and the dangers that this may carry, it's exactly the type of scenario that got Venezuela into its mess. The Government stopped listening to the people, who took it out on the Politicians by electing the loonies in. I'm not insinuating that anyone in particular is a loon, just that it's always a danger, I would also say that without a shadow of a doubt we are being represented by the worst batch of Politicians in my lifetime.
 

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I’ve been watching Game Of Thrones a lot recently.

All I can say is, our government would have been beheaded for treason!
 

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I am so excited! I am naturally an optimist in life and I am glad we finally have an optimistic government with a vision for the future.

We are now where we should have been three years ago. Boris should have been PM instead of May and we wouldn't be in this mess now. Yes, I voted for him and am pleased to have done so. No, I do not fit the stereotypical profile of a Conservative Party member: I'm young, black, and from a working class background.

They have less than 100 days to achieve more than what was 'accomplished' in three years, but if anyone can, Boris and the team he has assembled can. If not, we leave without a deal, thereby honouring both the referendum result and the Conservative manifesto pledge 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.

I watched the House of Commons nearly all day today: Jacob Rees-Mogg owned his new role and Boris exudes practical can-do confidence. His opponents are pessimists claiming to be realists. I truly dislike pessimism, it is now way to be successful in life in any context.

Will there be temporary disruption to the economy? Almost certainly, but I don't believe the context of the referendum was about the short-term future of UK, but the long-term, which will turn out to be fantastic.

I'm thinking about opportunities in the green manufacturing sector after we leave. More business opportunities than you can shake a stick at! (If you are the type to think about how to take advantage of opportunities, rather than waiting for other people to provide for you)
 

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I agree. Those who still say they will stand in the way of no deal, suddenly look like negative pessimists. There's definitely a new energy, lets just hope they can find a way to push it through. My fear is too many bad eggs are aligned to see that happen.

Even when we do leave you can be sure the motions to return will start up, just like the SNP and their constant "best for 3" attitude.

I'm excited to see how it plays out and to see a lot of sanctimonious remainers finally silenced.
 

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I was at the London ExCel centre for the last leadership hustings and as much as I like Jeremy Hunt, when he said, "I know some people are reluctant to vote for me, because they are thinking, how can you trust a Remainer with Brexit?" Someone from the audience shouted out, "you can't!". It basically sums up the last three years...

I also like one of Boris' recent quotes: "There is no task too simple that Government cannot over-complicate, if it doesn't want to do it". I'm not saying that Brexit is truly 'simple', but the value of willpower is a valid one.
 

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My fear is too many bad eggs are aligned to see that happen.
Well there's a prediction!

Dark day for democracy on Wednesday.

Remain have had 3 years to get their version of Brexit and missed the deadline repeatedly, time to move over. Instead, they hijack and paralyse parliament. Is there anything they won't stoop to in order to prevent Brexit?

The hypocrisy is unbelievable, "put it to the people" they said, bleating about the breakdown of their "parliamentary sovereignty" because Boris wanted to prorogue, and yet they have hijacked Brexit and democracy in the most Machiavellian manner rendering the proletariat totally powerless .

I think it's evident that at some point the fixed term parliaments act needs repealing so Her Majesty may once again wield the power to dissolve these ****ers in parliament. (Ironically a watering down of sovereignty by europhiles Cameron and Clegg, that is clearly having a negative impact on our democracy).
 

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We live in a parliamentary democracy, they voted, you lost, get over it.
The irony. Democracy says they need to deliver Brexit and they haven't. They have rejected the only deal on offer AFTER they removed our only bargaining chip, and now, with no new deal on the table they have removed it again.

The agenda is to avoid Brexit altogether and thus ignore the will of the people. and don't give me that BS about how "things have changed" because they haven't
 

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The SNP and Lib Dems openly declare it is their official policy to stop Brexit in any form, despite the referendum. And there are those within the other parties who feel similarly, irrespective of their party's policy. It won't take long for this to become the official Labour position too, since their position changes from day to day...
 
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