[kismetcapitan]

ok, so I've sourced some good toluene and am fixing to blend up some fuel at like 10/90 or 20/80 ratio - in other words, nothing too radical. Isn't there some kind of lubricant that has to be added as well? What would that be, and in what proportion will I want to add it to the Toluene Recipe?

 

[kismetcapitan]

did some searching around and this is what I've come up with:

toluene is also called methylbenzene, and you only need 96% purity to run as a gasoline additive. Toluene at over 99% purity is about $200 a gallon.

Toluene has a RON of 121 and a PON (US measure) of 114, so some simple proportion math will get you your final octane number.

Seems like people say 30% is the max you want to run. Marvel Mystery Oil or some equivalent is needed as a lubricant as toluene will strip the oil off of your parts (so will gasoline, but petrol already has lubricants added to it), the Supra guys say 10oz of Marvels per gallon of toluene, but a guy on the freshalloy board uses 3oz per gallon. Dunno if using more oil decreases the energy of the overall blend of fuel, or if using less oil gives less engine protection against the toluene in the blend.

Anyways, I think I'll try some and see if I can't safely advance the timing a bit on my PFC.

 

[Newera]

If I remember correctly from A'level Chemistry, Toluene's carconigenic, so avoid sniffing it before combustion.

Miguel.

 

[GTR_Cymru]

Miguel's right.

I've never heard of this stuff so I did a google search - be very careful with it.

I think I'll be using Millers CVL-Turbo (when I get my hands on my new R32).

 

[kismetcapitan]

me: "hunny, can you think of a place for me to store a drum of toluene? It's carcinogenic so it could be incredibly harmful."

wife: "oh yeah? what about that monster of a car you're going to put that stuff in? I'd say that's far more threatening to your life than a can of tolu-whatever."

Marriage.

 

[Howsie]

Just one question from me. Why run it at all?

 

[nick the tubman]

Just one question from me. Why run it at all?

good Q. and what happens to ya engine if ya screw up the ratio?

i have enough problems just putting in the right fuel.:chuckle:

 

[MarkFTO]

I usually add a little isopropanol with my toluene mix.

 

[Fast Guy]

Why run it at all?

It's a good way to increase the octane rating I believe.


PS Isn't unleaded fuel carcenogenic anyway ( or contains carcenogenic compounds :smokin

 

[turboslippers]

I asked our resident fuel boffin at Ford about Toluene a while back as was thinking about getting some....here was his reply.

There's loads on the web about the use of toluene and xylene for octane boosting. Both give similar effects. Typical website is:

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/gasoline-octane.html

A bit confusing 'cos it talks about octane according to the US definition (RON+MON/2). Anyway, to increase from 98 to 100 RON, you'd only need about 10% - 15%.

A few cautionary comments:
1/. it's illegal unless you pay the excise duty for a road fuel. Paint shops (which is where this stuff can be bought) will rightly refuse to sell you it if they know that you are using it on the road.
2/. May cause softening of old elastomers, hoses etc., so keep an eye on things and where appropriate replace with new.
3/. Don't get it neat on your paintwork.
4/. Large volumes of any single component hydrocarbon will upset the distillation characteristics, and these (aromatics) are both fairly high boiling point materials. May affect transient response a little bit, and may cause bore wash due to slow vapourisation. However, these would only be an issue with large volumes. 10% - 15% shouldn't be an issue, especially as the fuel standard from 1/1/2005 will further limit aromatics in retail gasoline.


Usual disclaimer - none of the above should be construed as any form of recommendation. If you do chose to try any of the above, it's at your own risk.

 

[Toby Broom]

we put 30% p-Xylene in my mate Celica and he did get better performance but the cold start was worse.

The biggest problem is getting hold of enough for anything but racing, to run 30% all the time you'd need some large quantities.

All the commercial octane booster raise the octane a couple of "octane points" this is 0.1 of a RON

The toluene being aromatic will rase the RON & MON of the fuel, therefore it's reistance to detonation, hence you can run more advance or boost, however I would do this with out a measuring A/F ratios.

10% toluene will take the old optimax upto ~100RON 89.5MON
20% 103.5 RON 91MON
30% 106 RON 94.5MON

pure toluene is 124 RON 112 MON:smokin: however not even the turbo F1 cars ran pure toluene


p-xylene @ 30% is 115 RON 98.6MON

 

[Toby Broom]

By the way it's not actually proven to be a carcinogen.

The differances in structure vs benzene help the body get rid of tolunene much more readly then benzene. Benzene is very carcinogen!!

That said, toluene does cause serious damage to the your brain and nervous system, not nice.

You should try not to breath too much in!

 

[Big Sev]

By the way it's not actually proven to be a carcinogen.

The differances in structure vs benzene help the body get rid of tolunene much more readly then benzene. Benzene is very carcinogen!!

That said, toluene does cause serious damage to the your brain and nervous system, not nice.

You should try not to breath too much in!

Spot on that man!

Benzene stays in your body fat damaging cells for a VERY long time

I would assume that Toluene is just as bad rather that risk anything

Gloves and a mask should leave you ok

Sev

 

[turboslippers]

The old man's pharmacy shop is 5 stories,the lower 3 used to be 'no-mans land' filled with random bottles of stuff from the last 150 years . The best bit about working there many years ago was doing bonfires out the back...ALWAYS started with copious amounts of toluene, xylene, acetone and anything else with flammable logo on it. I remember dropping a gallon bottle of toluene on the steps down to the outside once....obviously I lobbed a match into to get rid of it...
I also remember chasing a 2m by 1m 'pampers' nappy box, blazing away with a good dosing of toluene, down the railtrack behind the shop, approx 20 secs before the next coal laden deltic convoy came steaming through at 70mph...
Happy days...
never did be any any harm....he always told me never to touch the benzine bottles....

 

[ATCO]

pure toluene is 124 RON 112 MON:smokin: however not even the turbo F1 cars ran pure toluene

That's because the rules would not allow them too use 100%. I think they were allowed only 80%. It also can make the car a pig to start, Honda used to HEAT up the fuel before injecting to assist vapourisation etc.

Not to be breathed in or splashed on your skin.

DaveG

 

[Howsie]

It's a good way to increase the octane rating I believe.


PS Isn't unleaded fuel carcenogenic anyway ( or contains carcenogenic compounds :smokin

Agreed. Is your car mapped to take advantage of this? Out of interest, what spec are you running?

There may be an advantage in doing this for the track or drag strip, but for road use I think its a waste of time.

 

[kismetcapitan]

you may be right. I'll just try to get some ready-made race gas, 116 octane or so, for those special event days. My engine blew (see dead engine thread) on a top-speed wangan run. I want to run that course again (five lanes, two long tunnels, 20km, dead empty late at night) but well, blowing an engine twice in the same way would just be murder on the soul and wallet, and I'm pretty sure good gas will avoid such a recurrence. I may have had boost spiking at the time too, not sure, but my car did have the stock boost solenoid with no restrictor to be found...

 

[Howsie]

I thought about it ages ago and decided that it I would be running too close to the edge for that stuff. Properly mapped for pump fuel is the route I've choosen.

 

[kismetcapitan]

I've decided to start testing toluene, running in my beater first, then slowly upping the mix into my GT-R once she's up and running. My thoughts:

- proper map for road petrol is all well and good, but fuel sensitivity is an issue, and if your 100RON decides to act like 87MON on track day you're hosed. Some "premiums" have like a 14 point spread between their RON and MON, making that fuel unpredictable enough to run a good map - boggy and rich seems to be the only truly "safe" road map.

- At least in Korea, toluene is significantly cheaper per liter (as a duty free industrial chemical) than petrol (which is of course heavily taxed).

- I'm thinking that a percentage of toluene (somewhere below 30%) will not only boost the octane but reduce the sensitivity of the fuel, so I don't have to ridiculously retard the timing and raise EGT to dangerous levels.

- Basically my goal is to be able to safely run high boost (1.8, maybe up to 2 bar). Why not come at it from both sides - by mapping, as well as trying to stabilize the fuel? Saving several quid per fillup can't hurt either - and chemical supply shops in Korea couldn't care less about what you're going to do with your 100 liter drum of toluene. It's probably never even been done in this country - and therefore quite clear of legal problems.

 

[kismetcapitan]

I'm going to try an 80/20 toluene/acetone blend in my Hyundai (the acetone to see if it helps atomization, i.e. cold-start performance). Man, if that blend works, I'd cut my fuel bill literally in half and be running over 110 octane fuel!!!

either that, or I'll have killed an old Hyundai that stubbornly refuses to die, no matter what abuse I hurl at it