[jamie m]

SAFETY THEORY

I don't want to appear somber or negative but I thought about this post and realized that it is a good thing to point out. The following is not neccesarly directed at my friends and hard core Skyliner's on the board but more for the benefit for the 100 plus guests who read this board every day, but have not yet registered:

We have seen a couple of accidents recently on the board and I know of some others that have resulted from the recent spell of cold whether. I have a theory that now some the 32's and 33's are falling into the sub 15k price bracket people will be buying them who are coming out of GTI's and the 7 to 8 second to 60, 135MPH top speed bracket. Cars which have understeer or 4 wheel drifts built into them at the factory, cars which warn of gung ho driving styles well before the limit is reached. My theory is that it will be inevitable that we are going to see more GTR accidents as time goes on, mainly from people who have read about the car for years and are under the absolute false impression that the "Car does it all for you"

Well please take head, would be purchaser's of the great GTR:

IT DOES NOT DO IT ALL FOR YOU, IT SIMPLY ALLOWS YOU TO GO FASTER AND FEED YOU BACK THE RIGHT INFORMATION AT THE RIGHT TIME. IF THE INFORMATION YOU GET BACK FROM THE CHASSIS IS MISUNDERSTOOD BY THE DRIVER A SLIDE OCCURS. WHAT YOU DO NEXT (IF ON THE ROAD) IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HITTING A KERB OR WORSE LEAVING THE ROAD COMPLETELY OR GATHERING THE CAR BACK UNDER YOUR CONTROL.

Now, as the GTR is a rear wheel drive, a 4wd, and a mixture of the two all in the space of 100th of a second I put it to you perspective buyers that you will not be able to interprit whats going on underneath you in your first week of ownership or even your first 6 months of ownership!!! When you read about people on the board saying "the car just gets better and better" What they are really saying is "I am getting better and better" as I am sure the Attessa didn't change over night!!

So, my tip is: Get the car out on an airfiled as soon as possible after purchase and trash a set of tyres learning as it will be the best £800 insurance policy you will ever buy. We do not want to have to read about deaths on the board that could have been avoided with a little less right foot and a little more thinking between the ears. If you want to read about deaths just go onto a bikers forum.

Remember:

ALL THE PRINCIPLES OF SUCCESS DO NOT WORK UNLESS YOU DO!

Happy Skylining everone
Jamie.

 

[davewilkins]

Gung ho

Jamie, I totally agree. My mates wind me up for not driving flat out on the lanes but I keep telling them that I am doing an airfield day first to learn how to drive (I have driven for 12 years!).
Also, when I first got the car I took it to a classic car meet (to show off!) and got attacked by some opel manta owners who said....why drive a car that drives itself. Just like you say, people think that the car is uncrashable! Try brand new tryes and first gear foot to the floor out of a junction and the back end flies round! Cool!
Dave

 

[STUKICKSASS]

I agree

I agree totally with Jamie's comments. I moved up from a 200SX so it was not a total shock to the system driving the GTR as the 200 was a bit tail happy when driven to excess speed. I took the car to Kemble for a track day last year and found this to be a very useful experiance which I think all members should try at least once.

Better to lose it big time where there is very little to hit rather than into the face of an oncoming Artic!!!!

Jaimie you might want to edit the third paragraph on your post or is there something you want to get out of the closet????????????

But seriously a good post the sort of thing this site needs rather than some of the bickering and sniping that usually happens.

Stewart:smokin: :smokin:

 

[TOKYO]

Very Good Point

Spot on Jamie.

Good to see a constructive thread that can only be good news for up and coming owners who may have been dragged along with the euphoria of the Press and Media's "drives itself" tag.


glen

 

[SteveC]

Jamie,

Excellent topic, I am still new to the pleasure of driving the skyline (8-9 months or so) each time I take it out I learn something new. I am still not ready to commit to any high speed cornering, Track days do make a lot of difference I have only done 2 so far but I have learnt bundles from this.

I am convinced that if I had bought this car 5 years ago I would have killed myself in it within a couple of months.
I have no fast car experience other than hot hatches and GTI type cars, I had never even driven a sprts car with a turbo !! before I drove the skyline.

the deceptive thing seems to be the car's feeling under 3000 rpm, although not fast it is still quite quick and when you first drive the car you think ok that was nice and then you hit 3.5-4k and all hell breaks loose, if this was to happen somewhere tricky you are well and truly in the sh!t.

I had an embarrasing moment where I was getting some stick from a ford focus...boy racer up my arse etc.. so I put my foot down a teeny bit in the wrong place on a roundabout and nearly span the car straight away. I managed to get her back after a bit of a wrestle but roundabouts don't give you as much slack as a track.

I had heard quotes like impossible to lose control of, it drives itself etc..
If you lose concentration for a second it will prove that these statements are untrue.
They were quoted from racing drivers who were on tracks with no on coming traffic and everyone doing the same speed (ish).

not driving into the car in front was a lesson I learned on day one of ownership !! and I learn a new one every time I drive her.


/Steve

 

[DCD]

I have to agree, great topic!
Too many people out there think its a 4WD car and therefore a piece of cake to drive. There is so much misinformation when it comes to GTRs that it really bugs me at times. So many people assume that GTRs hadle like Evos or WRXs just because of the AWD...but few really understand the implications of a torque split system. GTRs handle much like RWD cars in that they can be driven on the throttle ...but it takes practice, experience and balls to drive cars like that! Anyone can drive round a roundabout in an Evo or Scooby at silly speeds with the front tyres screaming, but try it in a Skyline and you better be careful!

 

[Peter]

Great post mate. We've all had that 'sphincter moment' I'm sure and you need space to properly learn how a Skyline handles.

There are already a few opportunities on the board to have a go in a safer environment than our cluttered and dangerous roads so why not have a go.

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=754

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1176

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=938

 

[Ged]

Yes indeed.
I have driven reasonably quick cars for more than 20 years.
At 17 I drove to school daily in an Avenger Tiger a very quick car in those days.
At lunchtime in the snow dinner time was spent giving it lots of right foot and opposite lock.
Never had a problem.
Subarus giving it right foot on a country lane halfway round a corner in the wet never a problem.
Skyline giving it right foot on a country lane halfway round a corner in the wet you better be ready to change your trousers.

A skyline is not a Scooby or an Evo. It is not a 'rally car'. It does not drive itself. I do not know how to drive it.
It is a 'race car'.
One day I will learn how to drive it.
It will be on a track.

 

[jamie m]

Pleased you guys see my point

I'm glad that you guys have supported this thread with some very worthwhile comments - after all, it is intented for perspective buyers who may well be visinting the site as I speak.

We have all had our "Moments" in a GTR. I can honestly say that in 7 years of GTR driving I have had moments on the road but have never spun. I have however done more track days than I can remember and on some of them (Thanks Stu, Kemble) I have lost the car whilst oversteering at over 110. A great way to learn. So in many ways success in the GTR is down to how you react in the "MOMENT"

I drove an STi the other day that was quite quick and the rear end was so hard to dislodge that I would have had to handbrake it to enduce a slide. Nothing like a gtr.

What has come from this thread is that the press cuttings and clarkson stuff can be badly misinterprited by novice GTR drivers. There is alot more to learn about the car than what you'll read in an article, for instance, an article will not say that the more you tune the car the more the handling will change. How many article's say that the Attessa is in many ways controlled by the throttle? None because most tester's don't know.

In the early days of Driving with Calum Lockie (some years ago) even he got to 45 degree's in a power slide (on a track) and then lifted off as he thought the car should be driven like a traditional rear driver, which it should be in certain conditions - but not in others - confused!!

This is the whole point of the post: There will be alot more accidents to come as the GTR cannot be mastered (or understood) quickly and especially if you are a know it all who doesn't listen to FREE advise.

I have made my prediction so don't say you weren't warned!

Jamie.

 

[Smootster73]

Good point....

but when you have black ice invloved, I don't care if you are Ayrton Senna or Richard Burns, there is nothing you can do. 2 wheel drive or 8 wheel drive...And if someone is gunning for you and you are not at fault then god is the only one in control. I saw a friends GTR vspec get written off in front of our eyes on the M4 and it was the other driver who just took him out. Shocking.
I agree with you one hundred percent on the point though Jamie and it should be made awares. Comments I got were why are you selling the Pulsar? Much more fun than a car than drives itself with all that technology...Er I think you are wrong there.
First thing I done when I got the car was take it to a disused airfield near my folks to find out the limits (Rochester Airport for your info guys and some great disused road on there). And from the first flick of the tail one knows this is a different kettle...
It is about repsect for the car, for yourself and most of all other road users.
As you say, one thing the car does not do is drive itself and god knows where this come from.
Maybe it is something made up by other car owners to find a fault in the GTR
I always remember a guy who said...in 4 years of ownership it can still catch me out. As steve C said every time is a learning experience and I look forward to getting into another one soon.

Nick - see you all tomorrow.

 

[jamie m]

Nick,

You where unlucky mate - I could give you ice Skating lessons if you want

I'm talking about "MR. I fancy myself as a bit of a driver so I can drive a GTR - after all its just a normal car aint it"

who gets in his shiny new with his mates, gets egged on and then has a tragic accident.

Ofcourse we can all have normal shunts on the road that are not our fault but thats a calculated risk we all take everyday.

Jamie.

 

[Smootster73]

I know what you mean mate...

and I am getting some very special Bridgestone ST 007s in from Sweden...ST standing for spiked tyres!!! Either that or I will get some ice skates.
I appreciated the laps though you gave me around brands as well as the "jaunt" around the wet roads of berkshire...it showed me a new angle on every corner and the car, though can be predictable in some repsects, can give a little surprise.
Just goes to show you need to be open and willing to learn.
I think we all have different driving styles as well and the GTR can really highlight this. Both you and Peter E are very different (but rapid as hell nonetheless!)
I have a friend who drives around like a loon in a front drive car and I just cringe in the pssenger seat...maybe it is me after the smash or I just know that somewhere, sometime around the corner will be a nasty surprise and I don't want to be the one to tell his mother.
As for Weston I just hope he can sort everything out like I have been able to and get a replacement car for his. Good luck west.

NLW

 

[tim at svs]

control

Jamie
I'm in agreement to all of that and all good points. Here's my tuppence-worth on the subject. I have favoured rear wheel drive cars all of my driving life and have come to enjoy the thrill of opposite lock combined with plenty of power and a limited slip diff. I never been too partial to the more neutral/forgiving flavour the modern 'Euro-box' delivers and for that reason alone have always been a keen enthusiast of what most people would regard as 'peculiar' machinery. I suppose I must have experienced the male menopause at an early age, because when I was about 25 I found that whatever I was driving seemed to get a bit boring after a very short period of time, and suddenly I became a car salesmans dream, changing about once every 4 months. I think what all of this boils down to is if you are a car enthusiast, a bit of a challenge is needed to make you smile when behind the wheel. The GTR does just that, I never tire of driving it. The danger comes from complacency, because for all its safety, surefooted feeling and agility, in the background there is a 'caged animal' waiting to bite you. Few of us, least of all me, will ever truly master the car, thats what makes it such a 'blast'. I tried (unsuccessfully) to learn how to drive it properly last year at Kemble, this year I would like to have another go, somewhere. In the mean time, I will continue to 'watch my limitations' whilst still enjoying the car for what it is, IMO the best thing to have come out of the motor industry I have come across so far. There may be something better, but I either cant afford it or havent had a go in one yet. Tim

 

[jamie m]

agree



Tim,

First of all it's nice to have someone from the trade reply. You of all people probably know (although you wouldn't say anything!) which of your customers or potential customers are the one's who may be at risk of crashing!

I share your centiments on the GTR being challenging and I too get bored of "euro-boxes" as you put it, which are over developed so as the car doesn't attract bad press if to many people have accidents (A-class when launched and Audi TT Snap lift off oversteer to mention two).

You mention furthering your driving ability's: Why don't you come to the Track day I have organized with Calum Lockie GT1 champion on Monday 25th February at Donington. Calum will spend half an hour with you one on one in your car, plus there will be a separate drivers breifing specific to the GTR's handling charatristics. I will tell you more tomorrow.

Best

Jamie.

 

[geezajob]

While I agree with the sentiments of this thread, I don't think dangerous driving is limited to those at the lower end of the income chain who can now afford an R32/R33

Whenever I'm at Middlehursts there is an array of nicely bent almost-new R34 waiting to be repaired.

I think whenever anyone gets in a new car, whatever it is, they need to treat it with respect.

Anywho who relies on hype/press articles as a basis for how the car handles is an idiot, whether they be a young R32 owner, or an overpaid R34 owner.

 

[SteveC]

Nick,

I agree, but I think I would feel worse telling my mates Mum/wife/kids that they will never see their loved one again because I got egged on by the very person I'd just killed.

There are times and places and country lanes etc.. in wintere are scooby/evo territory.
People also forget that they are sitting in 1700 kg of metal and to simply throw it about defies the laws of physics, the handling characteristics also defy physics but I don't want to test that unless I am in a consequence free environment.
slow and steady thats what I'll say..

See you all on the track days

/Steve

 

[R34 GTT Boy]

Respect......

I fully agree with all comments that have been made previously 300%.

I have had my 25 GTT for about 4 weeks now which is just RWD and can get you into a lot of trouble if you dont respect that fact.

I have booked a place on the BMW Track day in March (as I know a few of you have) and would appreciate any driving tuition available from some of the more experienced owners that populate this board who will be coming along.

However as I think someone said earlier there are a lot of boyracers out there that love nothing more than to drive at 60mph+ down our high streets with all their mates hanging out the windows. This is the unknown factor that we can all do nothing about.

 

[Smootster73]

Sometimes I question why...

we spend all this money on rapid machines when there really isn't that much chance to use what you have on the roads...but thank goodness for track days and the only way ahead. I think this is why they are so popular due to crowded and shitty roads.
But then you get in a GTR and it is oh yeah I know why I bought this.
As you say time and a place for everything.
Ownership is great as long as you wake awake and the car is still there.
I would much rather spend my dosh on a car like the GTR than sth normal. Just depends on circumstance I guess.
Re the weight thing one comment a friend made was the car feels light to drive and effortless...er what until you get to that corner and it starts shifting around and physics take over. That false sense of security can literally be a killer!!

See some of you tomorrow.

NLW.

 

[tim at svs]

a day at the track

Jamie
Thanks for your comments and invite. I would love to come, if I can arrange cover as weekdays are sometimes a bit tricky. please tell me more !

On the comment front, I know I am an 'evil' member of the trade, but it was my enthusiasm towards cars that got me working around them. I dont contribute anywhere else on the net by the way, its a me and the GTR thing that causes me to be here

Tim

 

[Durzel]

Excellent points.

Being 23 years old, previously owning an FWD Astra GTE (8v no less) then moving up to a RWD 410bhp+ Skyline - I pretty much come under exactly what jamie is talking about. In fact, I wish I'd read something like this before I bought it.

Prior to buying a Skyline all I really knew of it was that it had "a lot of electronics" - it's reputation, certainly among my friends, was that it was a car that "drives itself" and "if you lose it you shouldn't even be driving a car", etc. I was fortunate in a rather bizarre way in that I very nearly lost it doing something I used to do day-in, day out in my Astra, namely overtaking on a corner (where I could see far enough ahead obviously). Having had that incident I have taken a step back and am - I hope - developing more and more respect for the car's power as each day passes.

Suffice to say I treated it like a very fast car, and nothing more. I didn't fully appreciate the difference between a moderately powerful FWD car, and a very powerful RWD (pseudo 4WD) car.

An excellent thread jamie and very sound advice for anyone considering purchasing a GT-R.