It's normally the worse mappers lock there maps stupid really you don't see the top mappers do it like Ryan g etc

 

Well this is it.. I have heard recently some poor chap had his car blow up on the dyno due to it being over fuelled resulting in vote wash and spun his bearings... How many times have we seen that on new engines?

 

Bore wash .. This stupid iPhone!!!

 

tuners with unique answers to specific issues want to protect their IP - I can understand that. Google don't give you access to their search algorithms do they?

I usually find that these blow up on first dyno run issues have had the engine built in one place and mapped by another and are looking for someone to blame.

 

Yes, that's all good and well but.......Consider the scenario....

You are a tuner and map a car. You leave the ECU unlocked. Matey then takes his car away and for some reason buggers about with the map. Engine then melts and he then blames you. Now you know your map was a good one but because you didn't lock it, it makes it all the more difficult to defend your position in court.

Tuners will give you the code, after all it is YOUR ECU. However, from that point on they (quite rightly!) wash their hands of any responsibility should there be a problem associated with the tune.


You could argue that those who DON'T lock an ECU are leaving themselves wide open to those folks who are less scrupulous and will look to blame anyone for their buggered engine....


TT

 

I can side with Simon and Tarmac a little on this, certain tuners "lock" the map to protect it from prying eyes, a respected (mainly cossie) tuner I know hates "twiddlers"

 

Locking in the event of a blow up or damage can also protect the tuner. Works both ways.

The other day I looked at the Mines stage 2 map all the tables were available to view and all the other settings also. They had nothing to hide. Granted it was mapped for Japanese fuel and far from ideal for serious use on UK fuel. Ok so you can't change it as it's read only on the factory ECU.

 

Ok so you can't change it as it's read only on the factory ECU.

And there's the important bit......

Why would you lock a map on a PROM??? A programmable ECU is totally different. If I was a mapper, I'd protect my map.

Once again, anyone who maps your ECU will unlock it for you if you ask. Think of it this way...the map is effectively leasehold for a one-time payment on YOUR ECU. The equipment is yours but the map is someone elses IP...


TT

 

So i have a question for you, do you feel that mines ECU (direct import) should be re calibrated to suit UK fuel?

I actually agree with TT that tuners should lock there maps, if you feel you need access to it then the tuners should indeed be aloud to wipe their hands clean of any future map related faults.

 

I actually agree with TT

You make it sound like that's a surprise!!!!

:chuckle:



TT

 

Of course good mappers lock their ECU Maps - Why wouldn't you protect your IP?

 

Because as a customer you are paying for the tuning therefore you should be able to access the result of their work.

I also don't buy the "to protect tuners from being sued" view as many tuners have blown up engine mapping them and I don't know of one who has then offered to pay compensation, they always blame the engine builder.

I have paid for many mapping sessions and if the tuner suggested they would lock the map I simply would not pay.

 

Your Carbon work isn't done in the UK but in Eastern Europe , would you like to share their contact details so we can contact them directly ???

Nah didn't think so

 

What's that got to do with it? It's at our facility where we have employed someone. What is your point? No and it's not Eastern Europe

 

Back to the topic I would want my ecu map to remain unlocked. If the mapper cannot do that I would not use him. I expect transparency on this.

 

Good mappers do not lock their maps Ryan g, pat, Paul (zen) I'm pretty sure Owen developments don't . You can not learn about mapping or other maps through looking at them.

All this to pretect there secrets is bull shit it life unfortunately. If some one making a really special manifold,plenum,cams etc it gets copied they can't lock them so mappers shouldn't lock their maps.

I would never use any one who would lock the map once finished.

Perhaps the big boys like svm and Lichfield might do on there big special builds but I think that should be it

 

that wont work everyone will claim theirs is a special build.

Locking a map is absolutely fine as long as the tuner takes responsibility for his map .Then if someone wants it unlocked to change the map thats fine as well but as soon as its unlocked responsibility moves to the new mapper.

 

Do you think if the map is locked the mapper will take responsibility they allways try to pass it on to something else to many variables. Someone can only be 100% sure the map is safe when the car is there at that exact time unless it has closed loop knock control with lambda trip

 

Too true, if I have someone map a car I would require access to their work.
After all, I would have paid for it.

 

My map was locked and was refused the code, but in fairness the mapper made all requested changes for me over internet connection and said any probs or changes in future just ask.

But if you are competent in mapping then it would be great to make adjustments yourself but only if you know what your doing

And to be honest if i did have the code i would of deffo messed about with it out if curiousity and who knows what mess i would of made
Ha ha

 

Who did you get to read the mines Rom for you FRRACER?

Did they manage to read it through consult? As I said when we talked about, it, I managed that on my old gtst. With Roms there can be copy protection on the chip but you can still read the data thru consult.

I don't know anyone that I would consider using that locks Ecus. Who does lock the routinely then?

The "special sauce" isn't in the final calibration figures (which only work on that exact car) it is the experience and method applied to get to those figures and that stays in the mapper's brain.

 

Personally, I don't give a rats ass if the tuner locks my ECU after mapping or not. It certainly wouldn't scream "dodgy" if it was locked or that the mapper was the best in the world if they didn't lock it.

Are we not just getting hung up on something that, for 99% of us (me included), doesn't really matter??

If folks are competent enough to bugger around with someone else's map then surely they're competent enough to have mapped their own car themselves, no ??????



TT

 

I don't think anyone's getting hung up.
People just have different expectations.

 

Fair enough I suppose. Although, if I was ruler of this small planet (or even just N Korea :chuckle there would be no difference in expectations...... just mine

Hmmm... wait a minute, that Kim chap may have stolen my idea on that one...:chuckle::chuckle:



TT

 

Team America is on TV at the moment if that helps...

 

Good.... I'll go and watch his dad and the ***'s getting their asses kicked by TA..

:chuckle:

Plus pick up tips on where they went wrong so I wont make the same mistakes!!!!


*manic laughter*....


TT

 

I'll send for the men in white coats..

 

I've found that proper qualified mappers don't lock maps, tuners do.
Read into that what you will.

 

No reason to lock the map for the tuner to check if changes has been made : I would imagine the tuner keep a copy of his work and that it can easily be compared against the running map and when a change has been made.
The map is the result of the work and experience. Reading a map won't teach you why and how the tuner made choices for your map. The real value is how and why choises where made. Thus nothing to hide in my view. You can compare that to closed source software and open source software ... some of the best software are open source ...

 

Matt J, the chap I was referring to is Karl Norris from Norris Motorsport in Alfreton ( I'm sure you know of him from TOTB and similar? - his brother drives the Talbot)
I have always respected him purely because the man knows how to build an engine and tune it aswell as so much more, so I have to respectfully disagree with your comment there. I know that Karl locks his stuff to stop other people copying his maps and also to stop others twiddling. Just curious as to which category you would put him in, tuner or qualified mapper?

(im not being confrontational btw, purely curious based on what some would see as a very bold statement to make)

 

Matt J, the chap I was referring to is Karl Norris from Norris Motorsport in Alfreton ( I'm sure you know of him from TOTB and similar? - his brother drives the Talbot)

Probably know him by face but can't picture him tbh.

I have always respected him purely because the man knows how to build an engine and tune it aswell as so much more, so I have to respectfully disagree with your comment there.

You're actually agreeing with me by your description imho.

I know that Karl locks his stuff to stop other people copying his maps and also to stop others twiddling. Just curious as to which category you would put him in, tuner or qualified mapper?

Tuner, unless you have evidence otherwise?
Locking ECUs is bollox, if you really need me to explain why, I'll entertain the question.

(im not being confrontational btw, purely curious based on what some would see as a very bold statement to make)

None of the above is posted aimed at anyone and I'm not being confrontational either, just sharing my experiences.

 

That might be the case as there are always a few exceptions of good mappers who want to keep things away from prying eyes - I don't agree with it.

If I pay someone I want to see exactly what have done more so because I want to know what I have paid for and secondly if something does go wrong and I need a second opinion then the map can be investigated. All this hush hush and locking maps up only serves to benefit the mapper or tuner. Saying the owner will fiddle with the maps and then go back to the mapper is just a smoke screen.

Why are HKS FCON maps locked? It's not like your average person can access it and if you do find a cracked version which is still not as accessible as most ecu mapping software or indeed the power fc with its hand controller.

 

Hi Matt,

I know he worked for Jaguar in his youth and developed ECUs for them and has been approached by other companys to do similar work, but he declined for one reason or another.

Please do explain why you think its bollox. I am genuinely curious as to why people think adding copy protection / locking a "map" is a bad thing. (thats not intended to sound snotty btw )

 

Please do explain why you think its bollox. I am genuinely curious as to why people think adding copy protection / locking a "map" is a bad thing. (thats not intended to sound snotty btw )

OK, I'll try an explain with an analogy within my industry.

Company 'x' decides to build a multi-billion dollar asset and chooses control system 'y' (the ECU of the asset) from company 'z'. Company 'z', under contract supplies company 'x' with said control system.

Once the control system (ECU) is installed, company 'x' is free to choose whether company 'z' tunes the control parameters (mapper), whether to choose to tune using in-house specialists (self tune) or whether to sub-contract to outside tuning specialist (tuner).

The interesting part here is that company 'x' is also free to choose whether to lock the control system or not, it is not company 'z' that decides or controls access but the OWNER, legally. Also, company 'x' is free to make changes as they see fit which has no bearing on any legal recourse for company 'z'.

As with an ECU, the control system is tuned for a specific asset, even if you cloned the asset, it would require tuning separately as no two assets operate exactly the same.

As I see it, there is no IP on mapping as all that any mapper is doing is manipulating control parameters, they are not writing new functionality, merely choosing standard library functionality. Hence why the mappers I use see no reason to lock MY ECU as I OWN IT, not them and I paid for the tune, which is my property, NOT THEIRS.
Edit: The IP is the software within the control system/ECU, not the map.

Just my opinion but everyone is free to disagree