[David]

Of course good mappers lock their ECU Maps - Why wouldn't you protect your IP?

Because as a customer you are paying for the tuning therefore you should be able to access the result of their work.

I also don't buy the "to protect tuners from being sued" view as many tuners have blown up engine mapping them and I don't know of one who has then offered to pay compensation, they always blame the engine builder.

I have paid for many mapping sessions and if the tuner suggested they would lock the map I simply would not pay.

 

[R32 Combat]

Too true, if I have someone map a car I would require access to their work.
After all, I would have paid for it.

 

[samgtr]

My map was locked and was refused the code, but in fairness the mapper made all requested changes for me over internet connection and said any probs or changes in future just ask.

But if you are competent in mapping then it would be great to make adjustments yourself but only if you know what your doing

And to be honest if i did have the code i would of deffo messed about with it out if curiousity and who knows what mess i would of made
Ha ha

 

[AlexJ]

Who did you get to read the mines Rom for you FRRACER?

Did they manage to read it through consult? As I said when we talked about, it, I managed that on my old gtst. With Roms there can be copy protection on the chip but you can still read the data thru consult.

I don't know anyone that I would consider using that locks Ecus. Who does lock the routinely then?

The "special sauce" isn't in the final calibration figures (which only work on that exact car) it is the experience and method applied to get to those figures and that stays in the mapper's brain.

 

[tarmac terror]

Personally, I don't give a rats ass if the tuner locks my ECU after mapping or not. It certainly wouldn't scream "dodgy" if it was locked or that the mapper was the best in the world if they didn't lock it.

Are we not just getting hung up on something that, for 99% of us (me included), doesn't really matter??

If folks are competent enough to bugger around with someone else's map then surely they're competent enough to have mapped their own car themselves, no ??????



TT

 

[R32 Combat]

I don't think anyone's getting hung up.
People just have different expectations.

 

[tarmac terror]

I don't think anyone's getting hung up.
People just have different expectations.

Fair enough I suppose. Although, if I was ruler of this small planet (or even just N Korea :chuckle there would be no difference in expectations...... just mine

Hmmm... wait a minute, that Kim chap may have stolen my idea on that one...:chuckle::chuckle:



TT

 

[R32 Combat]

Team America is on TV at the moment if that helps...

 

[tarmac terror]

Good.... I'll go and watch his dad and the ***'s getting their asses kicked by TA..

:chuckle:

Plus pick up tips on where they went wrong so I wont make the same mistakes!!!!


*manic laughter*....


TT

 

[R32 Combat]

I'll send for the men in white coats..

 

[RSVFOUR]

Do you think if the map is locked the mapper will take responsibility they allways try to pass it on to something else to many variables. Someone can only be 100% sure the map is safe when the car is there at that exact time unless it has closed loop knock control with lambda trip

I didnt say the tuner would take responsibility I just said if he locked it I would expect him to.

 

[Dan ep3 turbo]

I didnt say the tuner would take responsibility I just said if he locked it I would expect him to.

I've even spoke to some mappers and they were trying to get out of a failure befor They even mapped it gave that one a massive miss. That's why I like the syvecs so much with lean lamda trip closed loop knock fuel pressure trips oil pressure trips and it reacts so fast to issue I personally think you shouldn't have issues

 

[matt j]

I've found that proper qualified mappers don't lock maps, tuners do.
Read into that what you will.

 

[wardiz]

No reason to lock the map for the tuner to check if changes has been made : I would imagine the tuner keep a copy of his work and that it can easily be compared against the running map and when a change has been made.
The map is the result of the work and experience. Reading a map won't teach you why and how the tuner made choices for your map. The real value is how and why choises where made. Thus nothing to hide in my view. You can compare that to closed source software and open source software ... some of the best software are open source ...

 

[4wdnoob]

Matt J, the chap I was referring to is Karl Norris from Norris Motorsport in Alfreton ( I'm sure you know of him from TOTB and similar? - his brother drives the Talbot)
I have always respected him purely because the man knows how to build an engine and tune it aswell as so much more, so I have to respectfully disagree with your comment there. I know that Karl locks his stuff to stop other people copying his maps and also to stop others twiddling. Just curious as to which category you would put him in, tuner or qualified mapper?

(im not being confrontational btw, purely curious based on what some would see as a very bold statement to make)

 

[FRRACER]

That might be the case as there are always a few exceptions of good mappers who want to keep things away from prying eyes - I don't agree with it.

If I pay someone I want to see exactly what have done more so because I want to know what I have paid for and secondly if something does go wrong and I need a second opinion then the map can be investigated. All this hush hush and locking maps up only serves to benefit the mapper or tuner. Saying the owner will fiddle with the maps and then go back to the mapper is just a smoke screen.

Why are HKS FCON maps locked? It's not like your average person can access it and if you do find a cracked version which is still not as accessible as most ecu mapping software or indeed the power fc with its hand controller.

 

[matt j]

Matt J, the chap I was referring to is Karl Norris from Norris Motorsport in Alfreton ( I'm sure you know of him from TOTB and similar? - his brother drives the Talbot)

Probably know him by face but can't picture him tbh.

I have always respected him purely because the man knows how to build an engine and tune it aswell as so much more, so I have to respectfully disagree with your comment there.

You're actually agreeing with me by your description imho.

I know that Karl locks his stuff to stop other people copying his maps and also to stop others twiddling. Just curious as to which category you would put him in, tuner or qualified mapper?

Tuner, unless you have evidence otherwise?
Locking ECUs is bollox, if you really need me to explain why, I'll entertain the question.

(im not being confrontational btw, purely curious based on what some would see as a very bold statement to make)

None of the above is posted aimed at anyone and I'm not being confrontational either, just sharing my experiences.

 

[4wdnoob]

Hi Matt,

I know he worked for Jaguar in his youth and developed ECUs for them and has been approached by other companys to do similar work, but he declined for one reason or another.

Please do explain why you think its bollox. I am genuinely curious as to why people think adding copy protection / locking a "map" is a bad thing. (thats not intended to sound snotty btw )

 

[matt j]

Please do explain why you think its bollox. I am genuinely curious as to why people think adding copy protection / locking a "map" is a bad thing. (thats not intended to sound snotty btw )

OK, I'll try an explain with an analogy within my industry.

Company 'x' decides to build a multi-billion dollar asset and chooses control system 'y' (the ECU of the asset) from company 'z'. Company 'z', under contract supplies company 'x' with said control system.

Once the control system (ECU) is installed, company 'x' is free to choose whether company 'z' tunes the control parameters (mapper), whether to choose to tune using in-house specialists (self tune) or whether to sub-contract to outside tuning specialist (tuner).

The interesting part here is that company 'x' is also free to choose whether to lock the control system or not, it is not company 'z' that decides or controls access but the OWNER, legally. Also, company 'x' is free to make changes as they see fit which has no bearing on any legal recourse for company 'z'.

As with an ECU, the control system is tuned for a specific asset, even if you cloned the asset, it would require tuning separately as no two assets operate exactly the same.

As I see it, there is no IP on mapping as all that any mapper is doing is manipulating control parameters, they are not writing new functionality, merely choosing standard library functionality. Hence why the mappers I use see no reason to lock MY ECU as I OWN IT, not them and I paid for the tune, which is my property, NOT THEIRS.
Edit: The IP is the software within the control system/ECU, not the map.

Just my opinion but everyone is free to disagree

 

[maddison]

Odd that this has popped up, recently had this myself where I had a car mapped, had it dyno'd 3 days later at a local car club dyno day to find it had dropped 100bhp. Operator said the timing was out. Went to connect to the ecu to find it's password protected. Call the company and they say it has to come back to them which is over 200 miles from where I live so not ideal.
I ask for the password for the ecu in the car to be told no.

So now I'm looking at paying for a full remap again from scratch with another tuner that won't lock it.

Personally don't think ecu's should ever be locked. The mapper normally saves the file that they put on there so if anyone messes with it they can show it wasn't what they installed anyway.