[Dan ep3 turbo]

Odd that this has popped up, recently had this myself where I had a car mapped, had it dyno'd 3 days later at a local car club dyno day to find it had dropped 100bhp. Operator said the timing was out. Went to connect to the ecu to find it's password protected. Call the company and they say it has to come back to them which is over 200 miles from where I live so not ideal.
I ask for the password for the ecu in the car to be told no.

So now I'm looking at paying for a full remap again from scratch with another tuner that won't lock it.

Personally don't think ecu's should ever be locked. The mapper normally saves the file that they put on there so if anyone messes with it they can show it wasn't what they installed anyway.

Who mapped your car?

 

[nismoman]

see what your saying Matt but that is defiantly not the case with high level race cars ,you try convincing some one like magneti marelli race systems ,that you should access to every thing ,or a factory built race car , in some cases the ecu date remains there property as part of the agreement when buying a car , most factory ex race cars have there original ecu ,s removed if sold to protect data , i suppose it should all be negotiated at the time of having a car mapped/tuned as part of the contract of work

 

[FRRACER]

This is the case in racing I have a map locked magneti marelli ecu in my race car but there is a difference. The car was part of a one make championship which had a sealed engine that was only to be rebuilt by Renault sport as such the ecu was locked so people cannot remap and gain more power to seek an unfair advantage. This is not the case in a road car scene where you hire someone to map and then they lock it. Matts example above makes perfect sense why as a paying customer we should not have our ECUs locked.

 

[nismoman]

yes i agree that one of the reasons there locked is to stop unfair advantage , but one of the other reasons is protection of date .i know race and road ecu are different but it was meant as a parallel to the protection of data issue ,im not siding with one side or the other because i think it depends if your the customer or the tuner to how you see it

 

[matt j]

see what your saying Matt but that is defiantly not the case with high level race cars

It’s exactly the same scenario Shaun, you’re just not understanding the analogy I think mate.

you try convincing some one like magneti marelli race systems ,that you should access to every thing ,or a factory built race car , in some cases the ecu date remains there property as part of the agreement when buying a car , most factory ex race cars have there original ecu ,s removed if sold to protect data ,

You try convincing me that they lock the ECU because the mapper had IP on it.
I think you’ll still find, AS THE OWNER, they chose to lock it themselves to protect either their own IP or that of the ECU Manufacturer.
It’s still exactly the same scenario.

i suppose it should all be negotiated at the time of having a car mapped/tuned as part of the contract of work

NO! As the OWNER, it is your decision to have the ECU locked or not, if the mapper wishes to lock it without your permission, then simply go somewhere else.

 

[maddison]

Who mapped your car?

I'd prefer not to say as I don't want to cause any arguments with people jumping to defence or starting to slate etc.

 

[chaz_r33_gtr]

Interesting one this... few points in no particular order.

1) I deal with IP issues and transfer of IP in the Military Aerospace world and there is definitely IP in the Map itself as that is the Tuners expertise & knowledge tailored to a particular engine build configuration. However unless there are NDAs, contracts et al in place there is no way to protect this knowledge e.g. specific ignition timing across the map, fuelling tweaks etc. from prying eyes. Or indeed just one person saving the map for a particular engine configuration and someone else then using this as a base map on a identical build maybe with no tweeks at all.

So either every customer enters into a formal contract with the tuner (yeah and whos going to want to do that) or the tuner to limit liability simply locks the map to protect his knowledge and limit someone fiddling and destroying their engine. The argument that you have paid him for his knowledge and its your ECU etc again doesn't work unless it is specifically documented that is what you are paying for in a mutually agreed contract.


2) If your car is built (using parts bought by builder), mapped by the same company (and they are reputable) and they lock the map and then something goes bang. That at least eliminates finger pointing between builder and tuner/mapper which seems to be a common problem. A reputable company should take it on the chin that either the build, or parts they used or their map or an unknown emergent issue they have never seen before caused the issue . If they can prove a new part failed and caused the damage then they should claim from that part OEM whilst sorting out your issue at no cost everything else is their fault. This is a very grey area for the builder to prove a part failed, very time consuming etc and would need a float of cash in the business to cover the cost of a customers engine failure.

3) Consider the scenario of selling your car. I knew my car was spot on built and mapped by same people and drove very well for years. I sell to bloke X who I have met for a couple of hours, don't know from Adam and have no idea if he will fiddle with the map. He alters the boost, removes the boost limit from the map doesn't touch fuelling or adds even more ignition timing and bang. Then says he wants his money back car was faulty who wants to even get into that situation??. So I sold my car with the Map locked and stored a copy of the Map on my laptop. Then he can get car remapped if he wants and if it goes bang I can prove ( if I had to) that the map in his ECU was not the Map I sold the car with.

Guess at the end of the day it comes down really to a level of trust and relationship with your EngineBuilder/Tuner as to whether or not they lock the map/ give you the password otherwise to cover everyone's ass it all get very formal with various documentation to protect each party.

any way just my ramblings..

 

[wardiz]

My 2 cents :

2/ it's probably easier than what we think to change a "locked" map. The only way to make sure no change has been made for the tuner is to keep a copy of each map done. And that's what a well organized tuner would do. If something goes wrong he can compare the running map to the original to see if there's been any changes with the latest modification date.
Plus consider the tuner who locked the map can longer be reach : what do you do ? Pay for a remap ? I wouldn't like to pay twice for the same job.
Things may be different with a large company where the chance of failure are smaller.
What about a harware change without changing the map : the engine fails following a mod. Then before being brought to the tuner the engine is returned to original configuration.
Plus with a locked map you have no choice to keep the same tuner even if you're not happy with the result unless to pay again for a full map.
I see more inconveniences with a locked map.

3/ same here. If the tuner keeps a copy of every maps done then it's easy to see differences with the running map. Even if a map is returned to the original as the modification date will be altered.

 

[FRRACER]

If they take a copy map what's stopping them from loading that map and altering some key values? What about the poor customer whose engine blew up due to bore wash and his ecu was locked. I believe he had to send his ecu half way across the world to get it unlocked by the manufacturer. The issue was traced to over fuelling.

The bottom line is you should really trust your mapper and do as much investigation as possible and not just listening to tuner or mapper fanboys.

 

[David]

Interesting one this... few points in no particular order.

Reference point 1.

It's a completely different scenario to providing functionality to the millartary. "All" a tuner is doing is completing a fuel ignition and boost map. In doing that there is no IP, it is either optimised to find mbt at the boost level the customer allows or it is wrong. There is nothing special the mapper can do as the software is always the same and the method of calibrating fuel and ignition is the same it has been for the last 30 years and will be until gasoline engines die.

Reference point 3

I think you are really overthinking things if you did that. Equally a buyer could fill it up with 90ron fuel blow the engine up and come back to you. In both scenarios assuming you are a private seller there is no comeback on the sale.